In a recent post, Setting the Record Straight: Nancy Salzman Did Not Hand Her Teen Daughters to Raniere, the question was raised and an attempt to answer it was made by a commenter, ‘Nutjob,” on whether or not Nancy Salzman, the founder of Nxivm with Keith Raniere, permitted her teen daughters to be in the path of Raniere for private sexual mentoring.
Nutjob opined that Nancy never did offer her daughters to Keith Raniere – underage or over the age of consent – that it was Keith himself who snagged Lauren Salzman. and that mother Nancy did not know about it. In fact, according to Lauren, she and Keith schemed to hide their relationship from Nancy for some time.
Lauren was in her 20s when she first was asked by Raniere to strip down to her underwear in order for him to evaluate her ideal weight, which was 100 pounds, according to her court testimony. It was not long after that, she testified, that she was sans underwear, and in return, he was promising to father a child with her.
Lauren went on to become a high-ranking member of Nxivm and its subgroup DOS, which, accurate or not, has been branded as a sex cult by the media.
It is always best to get more than one authority on any question, and Susan Dones is certainly one of the top authorities on the first decade of Nxivm. She is a former member who was sued by Nxivm when she left the group.
Susan has an opinion on the original question about Nancy offering her two daughters, and she adds another interesting one of her own: Did Nancy offer herself to Keith Raniere?
Were Keith Raniere and Nancy Salzman Lovers?
By Susan Dones
As far as I know, Lauren was in college when Raniere and her mom, Nancy Salzman, were planning ESP. While Lauren was in Europe traveling after college, Raniere and Nancy opened their training program.
Upon her return from Europe, Lauren went to work in the office and started coaching programs.
When I took my first training in December of 2000, Lauren was a green sash. She started as a Head Trainer for intensives shortly after that.
When she started to sleep with Raniere is unknown to me. It was impossible that started when she was a teenager as Toni Natalie has said. I do know she was Raniere’s lover for years and she has testified to such.
It’s unknown if Michelle Salzman has ever slept with Raniere. Not that he wouldn’t have tried.
Do I believe Nancy Salzman has slept with Raniere? Yes.
When I was staying at her house, I forgot something there and went to get it. Upon arrival, I went to take off my shoes and noticed Raniere’s shoes at the inside door.
I thought, “be quiet” as to not interfere with their meeting.
I went upstairs and Nancy’s bedroom door was shut. OMG, went through my head. Odd noises came from her room.
All I could think of is “get what you came for and get the hell out of here before you’re noticed.”
I was as quiet as I could be and luckily the driveway was in the front of the house and so was the bedroom I was staying in.
Nancy’s bedroom was in the back of the house.
It was hard to look her in the face the next time I saw her. She acted as if nothing was different so I figured she didn’t know I had been there.
Both were consenting adults and I had been in ESP for about nine months. It was right before the first Vanguard weekend at Crystal Lake.
Of course I’m reading this after watching The Vow and scratching my head, thinking Nancy owned up to the sexual relationship she and Keith had…. then I looked at the date of the article. My only understanding of everyone in this story is from The Vow or Seduced … prior to Nancy’s confession I did wonder … then I wondered maybe she thought of him as a best friend and they shared a sibbling platonic love . However I am strongly apposed to to snuggling and cuddling exchanged under coercive control. Thank the God I am neither a person of influence, money, attractive, or brilliant …. I could see me falling on my knees for anything that promises a caring and wellness community whereas we are collectively working on the betterment for the planet and humanity and the promise of being cared for and to never be left alone wanting or desiring …. bc I will be loved … I could see me running to the program with my cats in tow ….Thank God I have good friends and family that help me with my guidance compass. My heart hurts for those whose trust, hearts, money, and minds were so abused in this sorrowful story.
So what if there was secret sex? What is this, high school?
People can share with whoever they want. It is not a world audience issue.
Nancy was a head trainer all right. That’s one word for it.
We have to be careful when we make hateful comments without all the information available. It´s not correct to make accusations based only on the hateful memories of a person compared to real facts that can be verified.
This reminds me of a phrase said by Vladimir Lenin “A lie told often enough becomes the truth”
How are you able to reach into someone else’s past and deem their memories ” hateful”? Did you learn that skill in the rapeable baby Nxivm class? Because it reminds me of a quote “I could make a very rapeable baby” by Keith Raniere
[…] joined Nxivm in late 2000. In August 2001, while staying as a guest in the home of Nancy Salzman, Susan discovered that Keith Raniere was a secret visitor to Nancy’s boudoir. Here is how she told the story in […]
I hope that one day the Frank Report moves beyond reporting these kinds of stories. Consenting adults are free to have sex with other consenting adults, and it’s not the public’s business, no matter how famous they are.
Oh but it is, when that individual has it claimed about him that he’s a celibate monk, or that he’s an ethical or spiritual “guru”—because despite what some have fruitlessly claimed otherwise, sexual behavior is still considered a significant moral activity—especially if the so-called leader is trying to deceptively manipulate and convert others over to his lifestyle.
I don’t believe that if some acquaintance claims you’re a celibate monk and you don’t correct them, it’s now the public’s business who you’ve had sex with. I’m also not sure that that’s what really happened here.
One of the few situations I can think of where someone’s sex life might be the “public’s business” would be if it were relevant to establishing guilt or innocence in a criminal court case, which I don’t believe it is here.
The thing that’s so damaging about sex lives becoming public knowledge, in my opinion, is, like you said, “sexual behavior is still considered a significant moral activity” – this means that if you fall outside of “social norm” behavior, you’ll likely be considered immoral by some, and probably bear some degree of negative consequences. The media holds power in its hands to stop some of the damage by not making private sex lives public to begin with.
Keith was the ” leader of a philosophical movement” and the ” grandmaster of a sex slave group”. Vanguard was accused of sexual extortion, blackmail and trafficking. He is now a convicted criminal. It is all very relevant.
If someone is a convicted criminal, even of sex trafficking or other things related to sex, does their entire sexual history automatically become the public’s right to know? I don’t think so, but some may try to argue this. I believe the argument would likely stem from a desire to punish the convicted person and/or satisfy one’s desire to hear all the salacious details rather than from a true desire for justice.
There is no privacy in prison when it comes to a prisoner’s past life. Within 24-48 hours after a new prisoner arrives, their entire criminal history is known by everyone in their unit. Most times, the guards will share that information directly from the prison’s files — and, once in a while, a prisoner will have additional info sent in via TRULINCS. Guys who lie about their past in prison are soon found out.
Yes. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is nobody’s business. That being said, he was passing himself off as a celibate monk, and someone of great moral character. It is an issue here because he was conning and abusing most of these women. That’s where the lines were crossed.
Its a little known NXIVM fact, but thats how they ended up located in the NY capitol region. One night, Vantard asked Prefect what she wanted. She said she wanted KR to kiss her where it smelled bad. He took her to Albany.
Oh, Susan, my respect for you has taken a hit. I’m sorry that so many things bad happened to you and you lost so much. You didn’t deserve it. However, this admission that you knew Keith was sleeping with Nancy, or suspected it and did not investigate, makes you an accomplice of your own demise. These were the two highest ranking people in the organization, fucking each other. It’s something you should have investigated. Maybe you did and you were lied to again but did not mention it. I’d apologize if that were the case.
But it’s clear, one of the most prominent lies told was that Keith was the world’s most ethical man and that he was celibate. You allowed this lie to persist.
Other people’s lives were destroyed because you allowed this lie to go on, possibly telling people of this lie yourself to recruit them.
I read a comment you made to Ivy Nevares to the effect that each of you must confront your own culpability. Perhaps you have done this already. So I’d like to know from you now if you read this, how do you feel about your role in perpetuating this lie? I would imagine that you struggle with knowing this and that you could have spoken up and stopped all the suffering you have gone through. Perhaps they would have done the same thing to you anyway. But at least you wouldn’t have had a personal role in the recruitment of others. I wonder if you have apologized to them. SMH.
NG? Stop being weird and leave Susan alone. Should she have opened the door and taken video in order to confirm? Or should she stop sharing and be like everyone else?
When I was in ESP/NXIVM, Raniere was not considered a celibate monk. I’m not sure when that whole line of BS started.
He even talked about dating at forums he did early on.
It was also pretty obvious he was romantically involved with women in the community. That was no very well hidden, it just wasn’t talked about. I did ask Nancy about it. She blew me off.
During the time I was involved, there were no signs of manipulation.
It wasn’t until the NXIVM 9 met right before we officially resigned, that is when Barbara Bouchey shared her story of how she was set up to believe she was Raniere’s only girlfriend. How she couldn’t talk to anyone about it except to the other women sleeping with Raniere.
It was then I realized it was the same set-up I had been approached about with Nancy Salzman. I was told that I would not be able to talk about a sexual relationship with her to anyone if it was to happen either. I was not going to sleep with her.
I have dealt with the karma of my involvement with NXIVM. I left when I found out how bad things really were, I spoke out, I saved as many as I could. I was sued, and I never have stopped working to expose them, no matter what it costs me.
I’ve spoken to the press, TV, film crews, worked with the authorities, and have spoken at each sentencing. I also spent years in therapy healing myself.
Most people have hidden under a rock so their Google search doesn’t say NXIVM next to their name.
Judge me if you need, I’m good with what I have done on my journey.
Thank you for that insight Susan and clarifying some of the things I had incorrectly assumed. I apologize. And yes, you’ve done a lot of advocacy and I hope it has been effective.
Tee hee. You had to apologize.
I choose to see a good friendship here that involves honorable love between two adults. I don’t think this info is relevant to any of the situations. Adults love sex and everyone is doing it.
And some adults like Keith Raniere love it with 15-year-olds. If you are a sexual deviant running a sex slave ring, all of your relationships will be scrutinized. Especially in a court case.
It is hard to find honor in a person who wisspers, does she had the evidence? And what is wrong about a relationship? People who acusses usually is the sinner, in this case it is sinester how a group destroy a whole community based in dishonor, hate and blame.
” a whole community based in dishonor, hate and blame.”
I like it!
Much more fitting for Nxivm than “building a more ethical world.”
Put it on the merch! Well done!
Frank, …you should have stole her away while you had the chance.
Maybe that old spark is the real reason Shivani isn’t fond of Nancy…
I’m waiting for Susan to tell a story of when she went back into Clare’s house and heard noises inside Frank’s guest room…
Flowers shoots from the 3-point 😂 line and SCORES!!!!
Good one, Flowers ☝🏼
Nancy is a criminal. Just ask her. She has officially admitted guilt. That is not debatable any longer. The only question is what happens to her next.
Sarah Edmondson in her book “Scarred” shares a story which reflects how unethical Nancy Sleazeman was as a so-called “therapist”:
“As the executives brought me into their fold, I’d noticed that Lauren and Nancy Salzman had a particular way of gossiping that made it
sound like they were concerned only about the “issue” a subject was working in ESP—except that they were really spreading insider dirt. Nancy was privately coaching Hollywood stars who required strict confidentiality contracts, but she would disclose information to us about
their divorces, their heartbreak, and their personal traumas. In a way, I didn’t want to know. It felt surreal and a little troubling to be so close to
the president of the company and to realize how willing she was to share private information about such public figures. If Nancy betrayed these clients’ trust regarding extremely sensitive matters and when the legal stakes were high, then what on Earth was she willing to say about me? My trust in her started to waver.
But I had to admit, there was something about it that also felt very exclusive. Nancy would share details that tabloids and their readers
would have paid a lot of money for. We were the only ones in the world, perhaps apart from their therapists, who knew what was actually going on inside the lives of some of these figures. That actress who broke up her co-star’s marriage in real life? Yep. From what Nancy would convey, she was as crazy and insecure in real life as we guessed.”
Thanks for sharing this story! So much for Nxivm teaching those rotten ol’ females to keep secrets! Oh the continued irony!
Dones is wrong. What she heard from the bedroom was Nancy and Kristin Kreuk having sex while Keith watched, trying to get hard.
Ha Ha, sje wasn’t even in NXIVM at the time fruitcake
Who cares if Nancy was part of Keith’s herd !
I appreciate how you wrote this, Susan (easy to understand, factual statements, not inflammatory) but I’m now wondering what I’m doing on this page, reading about this! As you point out: consenting adults… so why is there a question or curiosity about whether those two ever had sex?! I’m not really addressing you, the author, but all of us who have made it to the end of the article, LOL!
A door closed and odd noises coming out – does NOT mean they had physical interactions.
Besides, if they did have a sexual relationship, that’s their business.
If a complete stranger asked you how many partners you’ve been with, would you answer?
Also, how does an image look sexual? Was it because they were hugging!? Did they look too happy!?
You know they say you find what you’re looking for… if you’re looking for sexual traits… you will find them or make them up.
In the photos of Cami that Keith had hidden, you find child pornography.
Why is this even news? Raniere would f*ck anything that had a vagina.
So Michelle Salzman escaped Raniere’s HPV. Good for her!
I hope Susan will co-write a book about her experience within NXIVM along with Dr. Janja Lalich.
Ana, why do you hope that?
Hi, because once Susan tweeted like joking that she should write a book, I encouraged her to do so and then Dr. Janja Lalich offered herself to help her to do so, to which Susan answered that they would talk about it privately. So I just think it would be a great book.
Thank you. Ana! I agree! It would be a great book.
I agree. I’d like to read it.
I just wanted to mention this story did make me picture Keith and Nancy having sex. ew
All of Keith’s pics with Nancy look very sexual in nature. There is a pic hugging Barbara Bouychey and Nancy that looks super sexual. Overall, I always got vibes that Keith was fucking Nancy.
So, did Susan think that Nancy was a sex addict? Wouldn’t be odd that Nancy groped her and also fucked Keith? I think we should also question why people stayed so long in Nxivm if they saw they were sex addicts. Maybe we are ok with sex addicts. That is also ok. But we should question what people allowed in their Nxivm business.
Nancy banged her dentist. If I went without sex for a year, I’d double-up on my rubbers and bang Nancy.
This is as expected. To listen to Nancy speak about Keith, she is clearly over the top in love with him. Add Keith’s need to sleep with every woman he can, and it’s completely predictable.
Add this to Lauren sleeping with him, and it’s just grotesque. I can’t imagine what the family dynamic must be like in the Salzman household.
What attracted Nancy to Keith?
1. His prancing
2. His wide fit size 4 sneaks
3. The way she could pull snacks from his filthy beard
4. That manly scent of BO mixed with Valtrex
5. His cute giggle
6. He had her the second he whipped out his anteater tongue
7. She feels powerful when she dates shorter men
8. She could saute delicious brussel sprouts using grease from his hair
9. The challenge to turn flaccid into semi-limp was invigorating
10. She was hypnotized after staring at the jungle of 3 inch hairs on his bottom
I’m guessing 4, 6, 7, and 9.
That list made me nauseous. I’m sorry, I mean nauseated.
Vanguard taught me the difference between the two during his mind-expanding video summit with Alison Mack.
I salute you, Captain. I barfed chunks
Nice reference. I forgot about that.
Your reaction may be jealousy. Or, maybe even envy? Dear Vanguard was also excellent at teaching the difference between these two tricky words.
I reckon it was Myopia at first sight and the promise of snacks from a filthy beard..
It is hard to understand how anyone in her right mind could be attracted to such a ridiculous character. What we are likely missing is basic context. These women truly believed in the myth that he was the smartest man in the world & that he had the answers and solutions to the world’s problems. They were on a mission. They also lived in a bubble carefully constructed and maintained by Raniere. However, it can be no mere coincidence that Raniere’s sexual conquests became younger & younger as he aged. The women who lost their youth to this man would surely ultimately see him for the flawed human he was. A 13 or 15 year old was more easily seduced & controlled by him.
It is also important to note that Raniere’s greatest skill was in identifying whatever weaknesses his targets had been grappling with. He would then exploit those weaknesses- first, causing the target to experience extreme guilt and secondly, offering the target the key to overcoming such weaknesses (Raniere himself). He apparently convinced the women in his orbit that men CANNOT be monogamous (as if infidelity was a feature of manhood by design) while women must be monogamous to exist in their highest forms. He confronted their jealousies by convincing them that this model of inequity was grounded in purpose. When they questioned it, he steered them to believe that they were merely weak and in need of his “salvation.”
If you have ever met our Prefect, you will understand that Vantard was about as good as she warranted. Between her breath, her hygiene and her horrible personality, she’s not exactly a woman in her prime.
Big whoop….who cares….they’re all fugly anyway….and stupid!