Setting the Record Straight: Nancy Salzman Did Not Hand Her Teen Daughters to Raniere

Michelle, Nancy and Lauren Salzman

Recently, several commenters said that when Keith Raniere and Nancy Salzman were just getting started, back in 1998, Nancy handed her two daughters to Keith – when they were underage. Raniere and Salzman were the two founders of Executive Success Programs – later known as Nxivm.

The genesis of the story was Raniere’s ex-girlfriend Toni Natalie, who told me, Heidi Hutchinson and others that she saw Keith wrestling with the girls when they were teenagers in front of Nancy, with Keith pinning them down and lying on top of them.

Toni said she was alarmed and asked Nancy if she didn’t think that the girls were too young to wrestle with a man almost 40 years old. According to Toni, Nancy replied, “You don’t understand who he is.”


Toni Natalie told many of her recollections of her time with Keith Raniere in her book “The Program”.

Like many of the stories Toni told me, I believed them earnestly in the day.  Some of them probably required a little more investigation on my part.

One of the stories she told that I did investigate, for instance, was that Toni said she saw Rhiannon, the little 12-year-old girl who claims she was raped by Raniere, some 60 times.

Toni said she saw Rhiannon during her first visit to Keith at the Consumers’ Buyline headquarters in Clifton Park, in August 1991.

Toni writes, “CBI occupied space in Rome Plaza…  One of the employees had her child with her, a girl of twelve or thirteen with braces and wonderfully feathered blond hair who thumbed dutifully through an algebra textbook. Keith was tutoring her in math. That’s how amazing a person he was, we were told. He took time away from his busy schedule to share his genius with those in need….”

Rhiannon was 12 when Keith started mentoring her. 

Toni did a nice job of packing Rhiannon into her memoirs by placing her there on that sunny August afternoon in 1991, and taking algebra lessons from Keith. If this was true, it would mean that Raniere was either engaged in raping her at that time or was soon to rape her.

The problem is that it wasn’t true. Her timeline is wrong.

Rhiannon’s school district report shows Rhiannon was already living at St. Anne’s Juvenile Home when Toni first arrived.

The repeatedly raped girl fled from her home and from Raniere months before Toni first came to Keith.

school report 1

school 2

Rhiannon was not there for Toni to see with her long feathered blond hair and braces – when Toni was there in August 1991.

It’s bad enough that this poor girl – as the police deposition shows – was raped repeatedly by Keith Raniere, and had cancer [Raniere seems to cause cancer in a lot of women]  but does Toni really need to cash in on her plight?

police report

Another story Toni told – which was included in her book – was how her poor brother, John Natalie, committed suicide because of the hypnotic, persistent, malevolent influence of Raniere, who was relentlessly stalking their family.

John just couldn’t take it anymore and one sad day he chose to end his life.  Toni was so broken up about her brother’s suicide, she went out and got a tattoo on her back in his memory, and to inspire her to continue the fight against Raniere.

The tattoo read ‘In War, Truth is the First Casualty. . . But Not This Time”.

Image result for toni natalie tattoo

Actually, the story of John’s suicide may not be accurate. John Natalie’s longtime live-in girlfriend told me that John died of a heart attack and that the autopsy proves it.  She also said that John was anything but suicidal.  She added that Toni and John had not spoken to each other for two years before he died.

Toni Natalie and her brother John Natalie.

This is not to pick on Toni, who is one of the most charming persons I have ever met; sweet-voiced, attractive, always quick to tell anyone that she is always looking out for them. Still, some of her stories just don’t add up.

When describing her story of hardship to success, Toni said she dropped out of the 10th grade in high school, and within no time at all, she opened a glamorous day spa.

Yet, I looked up her high school yearbooks online and found she was still in school when she was in her senior year picture.  Dropping out of 10th grade sounds more dramatic than dropping out of 12th grade.

Toni Natalie said she dropped out of high school during the 10th grade. But her senior picture is in her high school yearbook.

As for the day spa she opened, two of her contemporaries in the Rochester area told me that she did not own or operate a day spa. Instead, she rented a small space in a spa where she did nails.

These and numerous other “little white ones” have cast some doubt in my mind on some of her other stories. That includes the story of Keith wrestling with teens Lauren and Michelle as their fond mother looked on, thinking how lucky it would be to have Raniere mentor them.

Prompted by recent comments, “Nutjob,” a man who was around in those days – he knew Toni, Nancy, Keith and Pam Cafritz pretty well – chose to offer his opinion of whether Nancy handed his teen daughters to Raniere.

By Nutjob

Anyone who says Nancy handed her teen daughters to Keith for him to fuck is lying.

It started when Frank was beginning his fight vs NXIVM, and he was throwing haymakers and blind darts. Frank no longer says this about Nancy, but Shivani does.

Lauren never met Keith until she was 21 or 22 yrs old. She knew him for roughly 2 or 3 years before having a sexual relationship with him, and Lauren kept this a secret from her mother. Nobody has ever given an ounce of evidence that Michelle has ever even slept with Keith – let alone that Madam Nancy handed a teenage Michelle to Keith on a silver platter.

Nancy has done enough on her own to destroy herself and the life of her daughter, Lauren. We do not need to be making up horrible accusations for the sake of piling on. When we do this, it discredits and devalues the actual bad things Nancy’s done.

I’ve been very vocal about calling out Nancy for the bad shit she’s done. I also feel the need to keep it real when made-up things are passed on as fact. This is my only motivation. (Not how hot Nancy is)

I have been very consistent in defending the female NXIVM players. I know Keith ran the show and they were his marionettes. When I defend Nancy, it sticks out like a sore thumb because nobody else does such a thing, and I have some first-hand experiences that give me my motivation & content to type.

I’d say I’ve defended a few people on Frank Report more than Nancy. Toni Natalie, Lauren Salzman, Heidi Hutchinson, and anyone else with first-hand knowledge who dares to speak up. I defended Toni for a short time as the drip campaign of the Frank Report against her was going down.

L-R Nancy Salzman, Lauren Salzman Keith Raniere and Karen U.

Lauren, because I truly feel the worst for her as she fell into the mess, and couldn’t muster up the courage to eject. Heidi because she’s been here so long, and had the most idiots consistently coming at her for no legit reason.

Later, we heard that Lauren was in her 20s when she and Keith first met. Keith did not tell Nancy at first. As for Michelle, I have no reliable evidence that she was ever mentored in the bedroom by Keith.




About the author

Frank Parlato


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  • When somebody defames or talks trash about someone else, with or without proof, it’s committed a moral damage that cannot be fixed in the person who is being defamed. It won’t matter if later on it’s said there was a mistake, because the damage is done and it won’t go anywhere.

  • I agree with Adam Hayes and the responsibility that Frank has a journalist with a lot of influence, especially when it comes to the whole NXIVM debacle. I have no idea who the writers of certain pieces are, their relationship to anyone in NXIVM or why they have earned the right to make any assertions about NXIVM and the people related to it.

    Also, as this article shows, there is a lot of power behind news articles and behind the media and every time we say or write something about someone, especially online, we have to be EXTRA sure we know what we are talking about and have true data.

    Just a little investigation into Toni’s accusations reveal an intriguing amount of inconsistencies, lies and exaggerations. Unfortunately, what she said is out there in the world and people take it as face value now.

    Very few people challenge their conclusions after they have read/heard something, especially something as charged as this whole drama.

    If anything, I hope we all take more ownership and care for the content we put out into the world and remember these are fellow humans we are talking about.

    • That’s true of most former members. Very few are reliable witnesses, in that the truth incriminates their judgment.

      Even Susan Dones, whom I admire the most, would probably not delve into the negligence surrounding the recruitment of mentally compromised individuals, and “treating” them. Whomever recruited Allison Mack, and all those that commented on her mental disorders that held positions of power could potentially receive their own legal summons if someone had the cash to hire the right lawyers.

      Every time Toni is brought up it just makes you look tiny and petty. Every time you think her behavior is off, look up the symptoms of PTSD, they match. Anyone that looks through these archives can see those who kiss Frank’s ass get a pass. Thing is, all the people that give her the most crap, are the ones that gobbled up the tripe that she rejected. She signed on for an abusive relationship with a megalomaniac. All of you actually believed this garbage and let someone else do your thinking for you. The material is laughable.

      Say what you will, that holds her above most of you.

  • Main takeaways:

    Toni Natalie is prone to exaggerations, misrepresentations, and dramatics. So her word doesn’t mean much.

    Keith Raniere remains a proven pedophile on top of all his other issues. Never let that go. His followers keep trying to ignore that rather critical part of who he is.

  • As far as I know, Lauren was in college when Raniere and her mom were planning ESP. While she was in Europe traveling after college, Raniere and Nancy Salzman opened their training program.

    Upon her return from Europe, Lauren went to work in the office and started coaching programs.

    When I took my first training in December of 2000, Lauren was a green sash. She started as a Head Trainer for intensives shortly after that.

    When she started to sleep with Raniere is unknown to me. It was impossible that started when she was a teenager as Natalie has said.
    I do know she was Raniere’s lover for years and she has testified to such.

    It’s unknown if Michelle has ever slept with Raniere. Not that he wouldn’t have tried.

    Do I believe Nancy Salzman has slept with Raniere? Yes.

    When I was staying at her house, I forgot something there and went to get it.
    Upon arrival, I went to take off my shoes and noticed Raniere’s shoes at the inside door.

    I thought, be quiet as to not interfere with their meeting.

    I went upstairs and Nancy’s bedroom door was shut. OMG, went through my head. Odd noises came from her room.

    All I could think of is get what you came for and get the hell out of here before you’re noticed.

    I was as quiet as I could be and luckily the driveway was in the front of the house and so was the bedroom I was staying in.

    Nancy’s bedroom was in the back of the house.

    It was hard to look her in the face the next time I saw her. She acted as if nothing was different so I figured she didn’t know I had been there.

    Both were consenting adults and I had been in ESP for about nine months. It was right before the first Vanguard weekend at Crystal Lake.

  • Nancy has a severe thought disorder mixed with narcissistic grandiosity. Even if Toni lied in other areas, this has a ring of truth that match Nancy’s other behaviors.

    I think there’s a misconception here between Nancy’s arrogance/self-aggrandizement and strength. Being strong and staying positive is not the same as being narcissistic and being condescending and patronizing.

    She should not be looked at as a victim. I almost think she pulled the strings as much as he did.

  • To Everyone:

    After reading the title of this article I know one of two things are true. Either Frank is being held hostage by NutJob or Frank is being blackmailed by the job.

    Both things are bad. I hope Frank is okay.

    FU Nutjob!

    • I’ll take the blame/credit. But Frank has better contacts than me who I’m sure he’s relying on to confirm my screeching. Plus, if I had nudes of Frank. I’d play my collateral cards way better than this.

      • NutJob-

        I understand. I can’t fault a man who is enamored by a beauty such as Nancy. Even Frank fell for her hard. If you can please put in a good word with Michelle, let her know I was that “really hot guy at the concert”.

        • “I try to say goodbye and I choke
          try to walk away and I crumble
          though I try to hide it – it’s clear
          my world crumbles when you are not near…” 😉

  • It looks like the story is changing. I hope those who suffered because of the lies can bring their lives back together.

    • Nancy is a criminal. By her own admission. So is Lauren. They are responsible for their actions. And rebuilding their lives. They aren’t victims. They are criminals. Just ask them.

    • It seems Toni Natalie lied about simple things- and the question is why? People who claim to be victims often blame or criticize other people for their lives and don’t take full responsibility. Natalie should be grateful to Raniere because without him, she probably would never gotten a book deal.

      • Right? Like Keith Raniere! Blames other people, doesn’t take responsibility, playing the victim! You nailed it!

  • Mr. Parlato. I am your fan. I have been creating content about you on social media in favor of Frank Report. I just wanted to mention that. Viva Frank Report!

  • I know none of the players personally.

    That aside, Nancy is an amazing positive person for all she’s been through. As a fellow cancer survivor, I am envious of her positive mental attitude.

    Lauren: you’re beautiful.

    Lastly: all these women, including AM, are victims.

    • Nancy is Raniere’s original and constant co-conspirator. She co-created NXIVM and the Vanguard myth, and coached Keith in NLP covert mind control techniques. She is very much a calculated career criminal.

  • Nancy seems like a great woman. It looks from her resume that she’s very accomplished. There’s enough information to see that she was making ground breaking steps towards dealing with OCD diseases through talk therapy. I think that what she can bring to the world is phenomenal.
    It’s always sad to see that a good person with amazing potential to help the world can be defamed by her own government and treated like this. I guess that’s what always happens with great women, they become the object of envy and hate.


    • Please explain In detail with backing proof how the government “defamed” Nancy? I am genuinely interested in examining what you have to illustrate your claim. Thank you.

  • Nancy disgusts me even more than Keith does. Her rhetoric on shame and self-worth and various other topics are so completely backward that it’s despicable.

    But what’s more despicable is the way she looks at Keith and talks about him. I’m wondering if she was sleeping with him as well and the ickyness factor of that – considering Lauren is beyond digestible.

    I think Nancy is just as big a sociopath as Keith and it actually wouldn’t surprise me if she gave him her daughters – even if it wasn’t until a legal age.

  • Frank-

    Tell the truth!!!!! Did Nutjob hold a gun to your head as you wrote this article? Or did Nancy entice you to write this article by using ‘female persuasion’ know in some circles know as Voodoo P*ssy. I know her touch is powerful.

  • Nancy Salzman is a Gangster who headed a family of Grifters.
    And her son in law worked for Brainco, a Communist Chinese company that monitored the brain waves of school children.
    How Orwellian@

    Ben Myers Gets Job With Chinese Communist Party-Backed Company Doing EEG Experiments on Children; Left Under Suspicious Circumstances

    • I forgot about that freaky story. It’s honestly scary. Where the hell is our government while this stuff is happening?

      PS: Does anyone know why Mexican Lady supports our President Trump when he is the one that built a border wall for our Nation to keep out the Mexican criminals and illegals?

      My man Trump didn’t build a border wall with Canada. Haha!!!!

  • Perhaps Natalie misremembered the year and it was actually 1990. However, the difference between 10th and 12th grade is huge and there is documented evidence in the form of the yearbook to determine she lied.

    Why would anyone believe anything someone calling themselves “Nutjob?” Not me.

    How is Nutjob so confident in knowing what was going on when he wasn’t present? We know there was heavy compartmentalization of information within NXIVM. If Nutjob were a real man he would reveal his identity. After all, NXIVM has been neutered and there is nothing to be afraid of any longer. If people had worked together years ago and started a Frank Report type of website they could have beaten NXIVM down instead of each one of them being divided and conquered, and Nutjob’s silence [redacted]

    • I’m pretty sure that Nutjob did not follow Keith Raniere very closely. He was not damaged by Raniere. He left peacefully. I would not have been following Nxivm or Raniere after I left if Raniere had not insisted on keeping me focused on him by attacking me.

      Of course, I would love to hear Nutjob’s take on this.

    • Just pisses you off you can’t dig up dirt to throw in my face, and I won’t take your tin can, huh? Don’t you have another act to default to when your “radio show” schtick, and your vicious attacks are neutered? LOL

      Here’s why you should believe me – nobody who was there will disagree with me. Plus, Lauren confirmed it under oath.

    • Maybe NutJob has a life, a job, and does not want to be harassed by a someone like [redacted].

      You can eat my [redacted], lick my [redacted] or suck on my 8’’ [redacted]

    • I find Nutjob’s insights interesting and fair. It is up to him whether he chooses to use a name. By comparing your comments to Nutjob’s, it is evident he feels more at home within his own skin. Carry on being a ‘real man’ with your hobby of insulting people. Your experience and choice of how to react have left you sounding bitter, unlike Nutjob.

      Just so you don’t lose sleep, Nutjob’s real name is Mr. Eugene Montgomery Nettlesting-Burns.

  • Once you reply or make public something you are making that come true.
    BEcause on the minds of you audience you have autorithy.
    “Like many of the stories Toni told me, I believed them earnestly in the day. Some of them probably required a little more investigation on my part”. So if you do not believe this, why did you make that public?

  • Well would you look at that, someone who opposes KR has a problem with lying to fit their narrative. How surprising

        • Anna – Can you please step into the common sense corner for a second? Why on God’s green earth would anyone want to make up lies and go to battle against Keith? He has a tried-and-true, locked & loaded, petrifying pattern of mercilessly destroying anyone who dares not toe his line.

          I’d propose that the opposite of what you are saying is true. I’d also propose that we are only hearing about the tip of the iceberg regarding Keith’s transgressions. His scorched earth strategy worked for a long time – until he couldn’t help himself and pushed the envelope too far with DOS.

        • So…. Not all “but a very high percentage of Keith Raniere opposers” are “liars”? Which ones do you think are telling the truth? Is Frank Parlato a liar? Please tell me who the liars are and who is telling the truth? It will help me to understand. Thank you so much!

          • Side note – If Keith had been able to simply let Toni dump his ass and leave – like it was a normal breakup – nobody would be hearing about lies that Toni told Frank.

  • Nutjob, Shivani…..this is where I get frustrated with Frank Report. I’ve been reading this site for about a year and have gotten to know these names but know nothing about them. As a regular reader of the news, I am used to certain practices, dedication to transparency, a standard of not using anonymous sources unless absolutely necessary, and when necessary, the paper explains why each time those sources are used, and will explain what that source’s relationship to the story is. With Nutjob and Shivani and others, we have no idea their relationships to the story. (Unless maybe I deep dive into the archive and find some description in a previous story, if it was ever explained.) All that’s said here is that Nutjob was around in those days. Ugg. I figure after reading this site closely for a year I would know who they are — roughly — but I’m left feeling like this is a site for insiders who know these peoples’ identities already. It feels insular and it’s not good journalistic practice. How about a little bio for these pseudonyms that protects their identities but explains their relationships. I still don’t really know who Claviger is. Others too. With pieces that are guest written, how about being like a normal outlet which will state somewhere who the author is and their relationship to the story. Like 1 or 2 sentences long. I appreciate what FR does. Thanks for considering these points.

    • Hopefully this will help explain some of the names:

      Nutjob – Was around back during the start of ESP and pipes in to share information. He wishes there was sarcasm font.
      Shivani – Likes roses and may or may not be Frank’s girlfriend.
      Niceguy – IT professional who may or may not have an attorney wife. He claims to like Boston sports but is lacking in general sports knowledge.
      Bangcock – Refuses to give any information about who he is, where he came from, or why he is interested in NXIVM. He types things for the sole purpose of getting a reaction from offended readers.
      With that, I pass the baton to Natashka and Mexican Lady to give us their brief bio and generously give bios on a couple other regular names.

        • Shivani is female. K.R.Claviger’s sex is unknown. I’m hoping KR is female because I find myself attracted to her. 😉

      • You are the first to know. After reading this article, Frank and I are astrally separated from our nonrelationshit. Alas?

        Also, my “real name” includes an action verb as its surname and sounds like the name of a wonder woman cartoon character. It’s been a pain in the ass to use, so ah don’t. Plus there are internet weirdos who sometimes try to get more personally acquainted.

        Some douchebag who wanted me to send him pictures of my feet has only recently backed off, and NEVER did I communicate with whoever it was/is. Some anonymous fake Tarzan, and the world is full of them.


        • Some truth, some fiction. As yet, gee whiz, I haven’t read this article yet and have only dropped into this internet saloon for some commentary eavesdropping.

          So Frank isn’t really astrally divorced from any relationshit yet. Perhaps. The last one to ask about any of this would be Frank Parlato, a man who seems to have no idea about any such affair. Not that he’s alone.

          Oh for chrissakes, never mind.

        • —Some douchebag who wanted me to send him pictures of my feet

          Joking aside that sounds like “Bangkok”.

          He/she/ze/they had quite an interest in Heidi’s feet for a while. He/ze/they/her constantly inquired about Heidi’s last pedicure and whether or not she had a ‘French Pedicure‘. I didn’t know what a French Pedicure was until Bangkok.

          * Please Note: ‘They’ and ‘Ze’ are gender-neutral pronouns. I believe in political correctness and in giving Bangkok a safe space.

      • I have been around here for, what feels like, such a long time I do not remember what brought me here in the first place. I have no connection to NXIVM but find Frank’s reporting interesting, entertaining, shocking, disgusting – a great varied mental workout. The comment section provides me with interesting insights, outrage and seam-splitting entertainment equally leaving me satisfied instead of depressed at the use of my time spent reading it.

        Once a year, I may or may not provide an interesting comment for consideration. I forgot this year.

    • Hi Adam-

      The commenters L, Heidi and Nutjob are the only regular commenters with first-hand knowledge of Keith Raniere and Nxivm.

      If you do a search in the top search bar on the Frank Report website on “Heidi Hutchinson” and “Scientology” some incredible insightful articles will come up.

      If you are interested in Keith’s early days and how he developed his teachings, do the search!!!!

      Take care!

About the Author

Frank Parlato is an investigative journalist.

His work has been cited in hundreds of news outlets, like The New York Times, The Daily Mail, VICE News, CBS News, Fox News, New York Post, New York Daily News, Oxygen, Rolling Stone, People Magazine, The Sun, The Times of London, CBS Inside Edition, among many others in all five continents.

His work to expose and take down NXIVM is featured in books like “Captive” by Catherine Oxenberg, “Scarred” by Sarah Edmonson, “The Program” by Toni Natalie, and “NXIVM. La Secta Que Sedujo al Poder en México” by Juan Alberto Vasquez.

Parlato has been prominently featured on HBO’s docuseries “The Vow” and was the lead investigator and coordinating producer for Investigation Discovery’s “The Lost Women of NXIVM.” Parlato was also credited in the Starz docuseries "Seduced" for saving 'slave' women from being branded and escaping the sex-slave cult known as DOS.

Additionally, Parlato’s coverage of the group OneTaste, starting in 2018, helped spark an FBI investigation, which led to indictments of two of its leaders in 2023.

Parlato appeared on the Nancy Grace Show, Beyond the Headlines with Gretchen Carlson, Dr. Oz, American Greed, Dateline NBC, and NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt, where Parlato conducted the first-ever interview with Keith Raniere after his arrest. This was ironic, as many credit Parlato as one of the primary architects of his arrest and the cratering of the cult he founded.

Parlato is a consulting producer and appears in TNT's The Heiress and the Sex Cult, which premiered on May 22, 2022. Most recently, he consulted and appeared on Tubi's "Branded and Brainwashed: Inside NXIVM," which aired January, 2023.

IMDb — Frank Parlato

Contact Frank with tips or for help.
Phone / Text: (305) 783-7083