K. There was one person I was talking to who was having a tremendous fight with ah it was actually a custody type of fight, almost, you know, the child and the child, they want to have the child live with them and the other parent is trying to get the child to get to come, the child, and the child wants to go to the other parent. The child’s growing up and there’s going to come a point when a child will be able to choose which parent they want um and so I brought it up to this parent, I said ‘well what if you just say “okay, why don’t you just go live with the other parent?” And the other parent says, “Oh I can’t do that. Oh my God.” ‘Then considerate it.'” And the more they considered it, the more their fear dissipated around it, they recognized it might be even a good alternative
K. And the child stop wanting to go because they’re, they’re commitment to, to their position created the oppositional commission po.. position just like ahh some of the things we talked about in Jness with the prisoner guard and prisoner which you’ll see it’s an interesting experiment that was done that had a very profound result I mean I can tell you very quickly if you want.
K. Ah, it was a prisoner experiment in Stanford college psychologists psychology department. They were going to do, um, it was a few weeks, they did it, advertisement for students who wanted to participate and some of them would, they wanted to see how people, ah, acted in a tyrannical sort of regime, oppressive regime.
K. And they were going and they told him ahead of time “you’re going to come in as students for 2 weeks. Some of you are you going to be the prisoners and some of you are going to be the guards and, um, we want to see what happens.” So you know they went and they, they, once the student signed their waivers, they took a psychological test, they were like 60 students that applied. They took the top ones that scored the best on the psychological exams, most balanced, so then they go, they the students knew exactly what’s going to happen, you know. Police came to their house and arrested them.
G. Laughing, ha, ha right.
K. Yes, so that they had the experience of going through, and they took the psychology department, the hall in the basement of the psychology department, and they took three of the rooms and made them into like mock cells with, with, so they couldn’t open them, but they were like prison cells and then they had a closet that they converted into like a little punishment room.
G. Laughing ha, ha, ha
K. And they had the guards, and the guards were instructed they couldn’t, they couldn’t use any violence on the other students as prisoners but what happened was amazing. The very first night the psychologist thought that this was going to be a very boring deal cuz the students are acting like, oh, okay the prisoners are sort of like in a dorm room, you know, the other ones ab-o-po-ba, but, within one day, the prisoners started, the students that were prisoners did things like um-ah-hee of type of attempting to break out ur-ah-ah, attempting insurrection and that acting as a prisoner caused the guards to believe they were more guard-like and the more guard-like they were, the more the prisoners bought into being prisoners to the point where they had to stop the experiment on day six because the person who was the psychologist who is playing the prison warden had brought, bought into the whole thing. It was an amazing thing that people get into roles and the roles are mutually reinforcing.
K. So prisoners acting as a prisoner caused all the prisoners to believe they’re prisoners and caused the guards to believe they’re guards and the more each guard acts as a guard, the more the guards believe they’re guards, the more the prisoners believe they are prisoners and on and on it goes limiting their possibilities where any of the students could have said, literally said, “This is it. Experiment over.” You know — “Bullshit. I’m leaving and if you don’t let me out I’m going to ta- da- da complain to the department head” and walked right out!
The door was open for them to do this but at one point there was one person who had what was close to like ah ah mental ah break where they removed them from the experiment and the other prisoners got out and started chanting this prisoner’s number and saying “This prisoner did a bad thing. This prisoner did a bad thing.” The psychologists were talking to them and saying, you know, he’s the prisoner’s saying, “I have to go back. I can’t do this to them. I can’t be considered a bad prisoner.”
K. And the psychologist said, “Do you understand, remember you are a student. This is an experiment.” And the student thought for a second and said “Oh yeah.” It was like he was in a delusion. It, then, it was fine to leave, but it, the delusion, becomes so great in a sense because of the roles, and the different roles the people play, the sort of lock-and-key sort of thing. We do this with life. We do this the our own roles, roles as men, roles as women, roles as actors, roles as scientist, roles as old people, roles as young people. All of these things, it’s a big lock and keys sort of system.
G. Yeah I certainly understand from the perspective of an actor because when I did a series called Battlestar Galactica, before we went into the series, we had a two-day, not a retreat, it was like we were basically going to have an experience as, um, I forget what they were called but like kind of like a military experience.
K. Boot camp
G. Yeah, it was our boot camp and we learned to march and certain things. Our behavior started changing. At first, we had to salute, we were smirking doing that. It was drilled into us pretty quickly, but one of the things is like they told us, we already knew which characters were and there was a rank and order within amongst ourselves, a hierarchy and what was strange was we did this one exercise where we were blindfolded. Everyone was blindfolded. Everyone had two extremely long ropes. I think one was like 50, ah, feet or yards, ah, and the other one was 200 and we had to, everyone had to undo them and by the time we were, we undid these two ropes which were tangled from each other, when we took our blindfolds off, all the people that played pilots were on one rope, and all the people that played crew members happen to be on the other rope.
They didn’t tell us to do that and also what had happened was I started falling into my rank. I mean, there’s one time I tried to grab the bigger bed and the guy said “no, no you’re on the smaller one, you’re a junior lieutenant.” But that was like the only thing I had to shift and that was like on day one and other than we experienced I found that I were, as I would have usually had said something to try and make the experiment go faster or the exercise go smoother. I found that I kept myself quiet and I didn’t really understand why and then what had happened was that the guy that was a crew chief and the head pilot, they ended up being more of the leader roles and telling us, everyone, what you do and we didn’t know each other. We would have barely known each other’s voices yet we were already falling into those ranks and sometimes if you’re in a situation where like you have a love interest character and let’s say it lasts for more than one episode, um, I’ve had that experience where you fall, you, there’s this extra thing where there’s like a chemistry where like you end up buying into it somehow more and that will lift once that role is done but it feels so real. There’s this extra thing in there. I can only imagine
K. um hum – a one episode stand.
G. Ha ha ha ha (laughing harder). Or a serious stand yeah.
K. Um, so, you know, it’s, it’s interesting, as you deal with these fears, you come up with these roles that you play and that you’ve fallen into, you know, so it’s interesting, so you know you, her, you have these students that are prisoners and they’re to the point of having a psychological break, you know, saying they need a doctor. One of them went to a lawyer and the lawyer was going to get them out of this whole thing. Well it’s amazing what happened in this you know.
G. Ha ha ha ha. That’s fascinating.
K. Uh and understand it also, the psychologist ended up buying into it and he looks at it in retrospect and I think he points out some very important lessons. At one point there was one of the people that they had to send out of the study on day four because they were having a break. There was a rumor that started amongst the prisoners that he was going to come back and jail break the prisoners out, so they moved all the people from this thing, this mock jail, to another place and he had a plan, that this is the psychologist that’s running the whole thing, that he was going to sit in the hallway and when this other person came to break his friends out, he was going to tell them that, you know, the experiment was over. This sort of thing all took to protect the prisoners and then what happened is one of his colleagues came down and said, and said, what are you doing here. He was explaining, “well, you know, there was going to be this prisoner break” or whatever, and he says, “well, what controls are you using? what and he’s saying ‘control’ in his head. He’s saying “you have to get out of here. You don’t understand there’s going to be a prisoner break” and he’s like so committed to what’s going on, you know, and then, and then, it took him, you know, being, ah, interfacing with other colleagues to recognize he too had bought into this whole thing, you know, and it’s interesting how these these roles work and how we fall into them so the, the, this part of, this type of evolution working on these fears, as you push yourself off against these roles and the, the things come up like, what if you did something that wasn’t very womanly you know.
G. Hum I think about stuff like that
K. Ah, ah, so you know what, what fears come up and those are the fears you address to go in and help these walls come down.
G. Hum, I think of, um, this is different, but, you know, um, the movie, Boys Don’t Cry’ with Hilary Swank? And before she ah I think it’s, um, she played, ah, I’m not sure exactly the term is correct but transgender and, um, before she did the movie, she wanted to make sure she was going to portray this character as true-to-life as possible, so in her own life she went out and dressed like a man and went out as a man and before the movie started filming and, um, she got all sorts of reactions from people when she would do something that didn’t fit, that didn’t fit like the masculine type, cuz, you know, she’s not going to look completely like a man but she did whatever she could, but people had these huge reactions to that and I then think that from that she probably learned to curtail and learn to do this behavior that’s the kind of thing that I would actually be more ha ha ha ha ha about
K. You will like the Jness tracks because it deals with all of this stuff.