Much has come up about Toni Natalie recently and it is my intention to be fair about her.
I have asked her to comment but she has not responded.
I do have a question.
Toni Natalie refers to herself as “patient zero” in her upcoming book, The Program: Inside the Mind of Keith Raniere and the Rise and Fall of NXIVM.
Was she, as “patient zero”, the first to be cured?
She has told many stories about her time with Raniere and some who were there at the time dispute the veracity of many of her stories. To hear them tell it, Toni is a pathological liar.
I am not asserting she is. I am just interested in finding out what the truth is.
And, as we investigate Toni’s stories, it will be helpful to analyze them both as if they were truthful stories that Toni told and also with a little healthy skepticism since many people who know her claim Toni lies.
People who were there and people who saw her afterward, say her stories shifted during the years after she left Keith to become a well-crafted narrative.
I have seven solid sources [and if I am ever sued for defamation or libel – discovery and depositions will be most revealing]. People who knew her when, and people who have known her for years, have much to say.
Just to cite a single example. Before we move on to how Keith Raniere may have saved Toni Natalie: Toni says Keith talked her poor brother John Natalie into committing suicide.
Is this true?
John did commit suicide more than a decade ago [and 10 years after she left Raniere]..
One of my sources was around at the time and says, unequivocally, that John had almost zero contact with Keith.
In the year leading up to his death, there was only one, innocuous email [another one of my sources actually went through John’s old emails – with permission – to try to see if Keith was trying to persuade John to do something harmful to himself]. There was only one email and it had nothing to do with suicide.
The only contact John seems to have had with Keith after Toni left was apparently when John wanted to pitch Keith on some business idea which never materialized. John wanted money and Keith declined.
According to several sources, Keith was not in contact with John during the time leading up to his death. This is pure fabrication, they say – made up by Toni to dramatize [and exaggerate] her suffering at the hands of Keith – and using her dead brother as her foil.
Toni tells a different story. That Keith was responsible for everything that happened to her and her family that was bad. That otherwise angelic people ran into Keith and suffered the ultimate misery – the death of a brother.
My source, who was close to Toni at the time right after John died, said that Toni told her that John had gotten into debt with the IRS and he nearly bankrupted his retired parents [mother and stepfather] who tried to save him. John felt guilty and depressed. To evade seizure, he transferred his pizza restaurant into Toni’s name. Toni told my source she knew nothing about the merits of any IRS problems he had. She was just trying to help her brother out; so she put the restaurant in her name.
In short, it is said that John felt guilty and his life was messed up. He had created his own problems and, other than refusing to lend him money, Keith had nothing to do with him, his problems – or his suicide.
But Toni says Keith was there in the background lurking and mentally persuading her brother to kill himself.
We don’t know the truth.
How Keith Helped Toni
According to her own admission, Raniere encouraged Toni to do hundreds of EMs — “exploration of meaning” sessions — with Nancy Salzman.
If this is true, it seems, whether Toni got into the mind of Keith Raniere, as her book title suggests, or not, Keith got into Toni’s mind and understood it.
He called her ‘Took” or “Tooki” [Keith loved nicknames] because he said she liked to take things that did not belong to her.
Of course, we all know he liked to do that himself too.
Toni Quits Smoking
One thing Keith did do for Toni was to get her to stop smoking.
Here is how Toni told the story to Chet Hardin back in 2006 – for Metroland.
It was 1991, and Toni Natalie was smoking again. She thought that she had kicked the habit, but when her brother fell ill, she found herself spending all of her time at the hospital. “It was stressful,” she says. “You know how it is.” When his girlfriend offered her a cigarette, she took it.
But she wanted to quit. So when Keith Raniere, who claims to be in the 1989 Guiness Book of World Records for “highest IQ,” offered to help her, she thought, “Great! The world’s smartest man wants to help me quit smoking?” Raniere told her that they would need to go to a quiet place, where he could talk to her.
“So we go into his office, and I remember him asking me questions like, ‘What makes you nervous?’ and ‘What relaxes you?’ Talking to me; touching my knuckles, using that as trigger points [for hypnosis]. And I came out of the room, and my husband says to me, ‘Geez, what were you doing in there all that time?’ And I was like, ‘What do you mean all that time?’ ” She felt as though she had been alone with Raniere for 15 minutes. Her husband informed her that, no, she had been gone for almost two hours and 45 minutes.
“I guess some people are more susceptible to this stuff than others,” she says. “I was the prime candidate. And that was the beginning of the end.”
What Toni describes as an ensnarement – and her absolute oblivion – her mindless miscalculation of time and her easy susceptibility to hypnosis – might have saved her.
She was smoking in 1991. If she had not stopped – had Raniere not helped her stop smoking 27 years ago and she had not otherwise quit – she might have contracted lung cancer by now.
Raniere helped her quit smoking.
Of course there are some who have doubts about her story – especially about her thinking she was only in a room for 15 minutes while her husband waited somewhere. She was alone in a room for two hours and 45 minutes with Keith Raniere. And he was touching her hand?
Some people who know Raniere might think there was more than hand holding going on and that the oblivion to time was a cover up for a session that involved more than learning to quit smoking.
But if we take Toni at her word, she went into some deep timeless fog and emerged not smoking cigarettes again.
Dani Spoke About Gaslighting
According to testimony at the trial of Keith Raniere, he tried to persuade the much less easily suggestible Daniela that he had penetrated her when in reality he only had oral sex with her – the first time they had sexual contact.
Much was made of this at trial. It was referred to as gaslighting.
Toni cannot recall anything. She told her husband, when he wondered what she had done when she was alone with Raniere for almost three hours, that she thought it was just 15 minutes.
If she was truly lost in a daze that made her lose awareness of time, what else did she forget or not know about that incident?
We do know that soon afterward she left her husband, Rusty DeCook [husband #3], and became the other woman in Keith Raniere’s life.
Keith was living with Karen at 3 Flintlock Lane and lived with Karen and other women for the first four years of Toni and Keith’s relationship, after Toni left her husband.
it is fair to say Toni cheated on her husband Rusty since, after she had stopped smoking and returned to Rochester, she began having an affair with Raniere.
According to her admission, she began her adulterous affair [on her end] with the single Raniere – while she was still in Rochester, living with her husband.
Soon after, she left her husband, and moved to Albany and lived in a house behind Raniere and his girlfriends, Pam, Karen, Kristin and occasionally Barbara Jeske.
In time, Toni became Raniere’s [public] girlfriend. Sources who were there tell me it took about four years before she assumed the role. Prior to that, she was one of his [private] girlfriends.
Karen was the public girlfriend.
So when Toni says she was Keith’s girlfriend for 8 or 9 years, she means she was one of his girlfriends for about half of that time. But it did change.
For a couple of months Keith actually moved out of 3 Flintlock and moved in with Toni. [Then he moved back again to 3 Flintlock but often slept at Toni’s house during the daytime].
By all accounts, for the next four years, Toni was Raniere’s main girlfriend.
Toni says she did not know about any of the other women Keith was having sex with at the time.
Sources who were there say Toni did know about at least Pam Cafrtiz. In fact, two sources tell me that she and Pam had made plans to have Keith’s baby. Pam wanted a boy and Toni wanted a girl. They would share the smartest man in the world’s golden seed.
But Toni told me that was not true. She did not know about Pam or any woman.
Assuming Toni is telling the truth and she did not know about the other women, then it was Toni who started cheating on Keith.
She cheated on Keith with a married man named Scott Foley who became her fourth husband – once he divorced his wife and left his child.
Toni also left her child – sending him back to her husband full time to raise.
When Toni says in her book she was a single mother – that was only true part of the time. In fact, maybe it was never true. For saying one is a single mother implies there is no father to help out.
In reality, Rusty was there all the time. He was always the good father raising his son. They split the time before the boy went to school [after Toni left her husband to go to Keith] and soon after he started school, Toni abandoned her son and left him full time with Rusty – so she could be with Scott.
But before we get to that – how she left her son and cheated on Rusty, then cheated on Keith, [though Keith cheated on her too – but she did not know that when she started cheating on Keith, Toni says] let us return to how Keith helped Toni.
Toni Admits to Being a Kleptomaniac
According to multiple sources who heard this, and two who were actually there, at one of the Executive Success Programs, [an Ethos class called “Honesty and Disclosure”] Toni admitted to the class [the tech does foster personal admissions] that she was a kleptomaniac.
This made some of the people aghast and disappointed. [This, a source says, sowed the discord that led to Toni’s leaving Keith. She lost her primary status as number one woman when she admitted she was a thief. More on that in a later post].
As to her being a kleptomaniac, some knew it already. That she liked to take things. Among her friends in those days she was not shy about her talent, they said.
She used to call herself “Queen of the Comp.”
She gave herself that name from her going to hotels with Keith and others during the Consumer Buyline days and making phony complaints to the hotels they stayed at.
She’d find something wrong or make something up – and then raise a row with management, threatening to expose them or make a stink until they agreed to either comp the room or upgrade them to a better suite.
One of the funniest ones – which was long remembered in CBI circles – is when she called the front desk to speak to the manager, then complained to him about how there were “fumes” in her room and she told the manager with an earnest and exasperated voice, “I might have woken up dead.”
She got Keith and her the comp alright, but for years afterward Keith used to joke about her success and the fun of her statement that she might have woken up dead. Since the dead usually don’t wake up at all.
But that’s not the point.
Toni admitted she was a kleptomaniac, according to sources. She said she had to steal. And then she had 100s of EMs.
Now if you ask Toni today, she will undoubtedly tell you she is not a kleptomaniac, not any more, not today.
Keith and his tech seem to have cured her.
Two points in Keith’s favor and I am sure Toni will mention this all in her book. He helped her quit smoking and seems to have helped her stop stealing.
There is a lot to tell in her book; maybe she won’t be able to fit it all in. Like her role in the computer trespassing case.
When I mentioned in an earlier post that she had been indicted for computer trespassing, she mentioned that she was also in trouble with law enforcement for some kind of fraud, which she said was Keith’s fault.
It had to do, according to six sources, including one aware of the law enforcement investigation, with borrowing money for restaurant equipment that somehow never showed up at her restaurant.
In other words, she got money from the bank to buy equipment but did not actually buy the equipment.
But, in fairness to Toni, she said it was Keith who made her sign the fraudulent papers and she did not know what she was signing.
It is not clear how Keith got her to sign similar papers after she left him. But reportedly she did get into hot water with the law for bank fraud for papers she signed after she left Keith – but managed – thanks to Joe O’Hara – and his procurement of a top attorney for her – to avoid going to prison.
[Toni told me personally that she was falsely indicted. I never saw the indictment.]
It may however have been Keith’s fault or perhaps the lingering remnants of kleptomania.
Some of this restaurant equipment fraud reportedly occurred after she left her child and ran off with a married man who became her fourth husband [Scott Foley] and her partner in business.
This has not been confirmed.
When I say they “ran off” perhaps that is not fair. Toni says she left with Scott to escape Keith – first to the Florida Keys in a recreational vehicle that Toni’s mother and stepfather bought her [Toni left her child behind. Scott left his child and wife, which shows how dangerous Keith must be].
Then when they left the Keys, Scott and Toni started a restaurant in New York with money Toni’s parents gave them.
The restaurant failed, but since she had left Keith years earlier, it is not clear how Keith is to blame for the restaurant’s failure. Maybe her book will explain.
Still, in the end, maybe she should offer some thanks to the man, Keith Raniere, who helped her not only quit smoking, but tried, and possibly succeeded in curing her of her lifelong kleptomania.
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
You took that out of context. Taken to the extreme, nobody should be in prison.
Cut the old bag some slack…she’s just trying to capitalize on the NXIVM saga (which she was involved in), and talking up her book. She wants to make a few bucks, and I can’t fault her for that, even if it is at the expense of Truth. After all ,nobody is forcing you to buy it.
[…] Did Keith Raniere Save Toni Natalie? […]
He preyed on the pathetic. And it’s amazing the credit he is given when he was met at least half way by his victims. Hypnotic suggestions of suicide that people acted on? Give me a break. He’s a con man that was backed by wealth. He could not possibly be a smaller man then he was. Mind control my butt. Even those commenting here in one instance they speak to how ridiculous he is and in another talk of how dangerous and sinister. He was the head clown of a circus with an inner circle of small petty people like himself.
You stand as testament and reminder of mankind’s old world hubris…..
A shallow disregard and contempt for anyone not as strong or fortunate as you.
In your mind’s eye we are all just a bunch of pathetic caring weak fools.
“He prayed on the pathetic”….
…..I think your opinion is rather pathetic.
Please go back to your fabled land of make believe…..
And keep drinking from your cup filled with self adulation, grandiosity, and cheap whiskey.
May God have pity on your soul for you will always be a wretch.
Was Keith ever married?
I have wondered if he didn’t have to secretly marry Cafritz in order to become the beneficiary of her trusts – if she had trusts not set up by her but by parents or grandparents, typically those are written so that only surviving spouses and children can benefit.
New York doesn’t have common law marriages, or he and Unterreiner would have been spouses.
Based on various reports made at FrankReport, I can surmise that:
#1) Toni was involved with CBI — a pyramid scheme that was being investigated by NY authorities and many other states.
#2) Toni was involved with 2 ‘failed’ health businesses — that some people (on FrankReport) have described as MLM businesses similar to CBI (i.e., possibly pyramid schemes). Also, she seems to have bailed on one of those businesses under ‘unusual’ circumstances.
#3) Toni was involved with a ‘failed’ restaurant that her parents gave her the money to start, while also allegedly signing lease documents that led to an indictment that was later dismissed.
Is it just me, or does anybody else see a PATTERN of life choices made by Toni?
I just don’t believe that she was forced to do any of that.
How can somebody ‘force’ you to sign a lease document for a firm that you own? LOL.
I’m just wondering why Toni seems to spend so much of her adult life trying to make money by doing things that many people here might consider shady and questionable?
I don’t believe in coincidences.
I believe that people make active choices in life —- and Toni has apparently been making the same types of choices over and over.
…And now the ultimate IRONY presents itself below, LOL:
Toni has been saying for years that NXIVM and Keith are abusive for using the threat of lawsuits to silence critics of NXIVM.
*Yet apparently she’s so upset about Joe (and others) exposing details about her own life on FrankReport —- that there’s talk about Toni possibly using those same lawsuit threats to silence her own critics, LOL.
Just glad that Frank doesn’t cave-in to that kinda stuff.
Truth shall prevail.
I just hope that as her book is published and more info becomes available, FrankReport will continue to hold her accountable for what she says.
Running a con about your brother’s suicide to leverage sympathy and money for yourself from the ex-NXIVM community is beyond disgusting. Getting a tacky tattoo to commemorate the con is bonkers. I think this woman is a sociopath.
This guy may have been the forerunner of both Raniere and Epstein, with the same MO of a female recruiting posse: https://www.thedailysheeple.com/top-soros-fund-manager-ran-human-trafficking-sex-dungeon-of-imprisoned-women-in-nyc-lawsuit/ What is in the water in New York?
A lot of PCPs in the Hudson River!!!
Niceguy’s analysis and article commentary of “Did Keith Raniere Save Toni Natalie?” :
Frank as been attacked,via back channels, most likely by a simple email threatening litigious action.
Somone , perhaps an individual who looks like Wolf Blitzer recently, in response to the “Truth Seeker” article…
……fired a cannon shot across Frank Parlato’s bow…. via said email.
Frank in his usual incredible articulate well crafted article, answers back with his own cannon shot across the offending vessel’s bow……
A great and glorious battle may be brewing……on the high seas….
Apparently the NXIVM tech did not work too well because Toni appears to be trying to stifle any other version of the NXIVM story but her own.
The NXIVM “tech” is working perfectly, everyone has their own definition of joy.
So if Toni is claiming patient zero status. What does that make all the women before her (Pam, Karen, etc) Sub-Zero’s?
Really, should we add narcissistic woman to the list of things Toni Natalie is?
In my opinion the true patient zero and first victim of Keith Raniere is Gina Hutchinson.
Gina Hutchinson I believe was driven to suicide by Keith Raniere and his coven.
I believe Keith Raniere, the sadist, emotionally tortured Gina Hutchinson.
Sadly, so correct.
#TheRealPatientZero. Gina Hutchinson. Horrified by this Toni Natalie con game. Sorry for Heidi and all who loved Gina.
Posted before finishing… The first NXIVM student would be patient one.
Gina was f*cked by Raniere long before NXIVM was invented, about a decade and a half. Raniere probably f*cked many others before Hutchinson.
I think Toni is referring to being the guinea pig for what would become NXIVM. Patient one would be the first official NXIVM
There is quite a difference between someone actually having symptoms of kleptomania versus being someone who has “sticky fingers.” Maybe Natalie has a tendency to dramatize things about herself, not only to get attention but also, in a rather blowsy, half-assed way, to attempt deflection. It is as if she really has bigger inner neediness and undigested shame and feels compelled to hide that, isn’t ready to handle the deeper issues, so she thought it’d be safer to claim her stealing habit is a compulsivity “out of her control.” Cute, but easy to blow right out of the water.
Her stealing habits sound more “conscious” than authentic kleptomania, which can be very miserably, uncomfortably compulsive. Kleptomania also is frequently an accompanying symptom of bulimia, as well as other disorders. It can be a horrible inner battle, with wide, anxious arcs of tension, resistance and personal shame.
It is unrelated to being a conwoman looking for motel room upgrades and scamming for deals, discounts and comps. This is not kleptomania but more greediness, desire for unnecessary increases in status and being focused on the little power rushes of getting the better of others.
What is evident is that Toni likes to cry “wolf” even about herself. “Look at my problems! Woo hoo! Over here. Me me me me me…”
The sad thing is that a kleptomaniac can be a very honest individual otherwise and be gripped by compulsive anxiousness, with a full range of OCD struggles, while trying to hold off the urges to steal something, something often not wanted or needed at all. Toni Natalie probably already knows that she cannot fool all of the people all of the time. But she seems dedicated to keeping on trying.
Holy Cow. 🙂
This was a VERY well written piece of journalism.
I’m gonna read it several times just to digest every morsel. 🙂
Very thorough and balanced, giving the perspective from both Toni’s side and the alternate side as well.
This is the kinda investigative journalism that no other media outlet would have access to, since Frank’s got the most reliable sources within the ex-NXIVM community.
Well done, Frank. You’ve restored my faith in real journalism.
What a stupid tattoo. I’m almost positive that innocence is the first causality of war. If you are allies in a war, then yes truth would be the first causality
Innocence is usually lost long before war starts. In fact, losing innocence is what leads to war. Allies have a deep need to tell their allies the truth, your success and lives depend on it.
Nancy did practice the ESP “tech” on Toni. If makes sense the the Exploration of Meaning module was created after Toni left. I don’t know how many times Nancy and Toni worked together. Dozens +, I’m sure of. They met on a regular basis for months. This was common knowledge and put out there by Nancy.
How do you know? Nutjob you keep putting things out as facts, were you in NXIVM or are you merely Toni’s stooge? Funny, I thought it was 100’s of EM’s, now it’s dozens +.
Nancy and Pam put out there, which you would know if you were in NXIVM and more than Toni’s writer stooge, that Toni was famously the first EM. How after the one EM Toni bolted with her boyfriend. We all know you’re desperate to get traction on the whole “patient zero” theme, it would be cool to read about, but it’s just not true. Sorry.
Uh, talk to anyone who was around at the time and you’d know it is true. I never said it was 100s. I don’t know how many it was. But is was a thing. It wasn’t called “EMs” as it was being done. Nancy was being Toni’s therapist – at the exact same time ESP was being created and then started. Call it what you want, but are you saying Nancy wasn’t Toni’s therapist and didn’t practice the new ESP tech on Toni? I don’t get why you would argue this.
Yes unequivocally the new ESP tech was not done on Toni except once. Right before she left. Sorry.
How would you know otherwise? You are not talking to anyone that “was around at the time”. If I were you I would be busting ass to fact check Toni’s bank fraud scheme as Frank, Joe, and the commentators here are all confirming. That is serious shit. Protect yourself. If she lied about that, the 100’s of “EM’s”, her brother’s suicide, her “single mom” status? What else might she lied have about? You need to evaluate everything Toni has told you, and assume it may not be true.
Be smart. I’m arguing about this because it’s so obvious you are being taken for a ride. Hard to watch.
If you can define “ESP Tech”, then I guess you are one up on me. I thought NLP was a part of ESP. No?
I always assumed (no first hand knowledge) Nancy took Toni through the first 20 or so modules on a one on basis, and tried out the new toys on her. Maybe I’m wrong. Could you explain what magic happened in this single EM session? It sounds like the “quit smoking” session 2.0.
Nobody is being taken for a ride. I don’t have a dog in the fight. I simply know information and am sharing/correcting. You are trying to get to the truth, right?
No problem Nutjob maybe you aren’t Chet? I will explain the details later tonight or tomorrow, busy with other things. In the meantime, it’s hard for the average person to imagine someone is a pathological liar. That they might be spinning lies to you for sport, out of impulse, or compulsion. As some kind of grift. I truly believe Toni is such a person and many people have been harmed by her. The truth needs to come out because she is a predator. She can’t be allowed to continue her reign of stealing and lies.
I know the truth unequivocally. I am exposing/corrector as are others. The NXIVM victims need to be protected from the piranhas like Toni Natalie and Chet Hardin.
I think I know what you’re talking about. You’re calling Rational Inquiry, “ESP Tech”. That makes sense with the time frame. But I doubt that single session (if it actually happened and isn’t a made up part of the “why Toni left” story) was much different or had any more of an impact than all the other sessions Toni and Nancy had been having.
Nutcase you speak as if Toni Natalie was the only.one Nancy ever worked with.
Let’s not forget who invented the technology in the first place? Was it not Keith Raniere? That is what NXIVM has spouted since the beginning of time.
That being the case, Raniere would have started on Natalie years before Salzman ever came into the fold.
Regarding the inner circle, those who knew him the longest would have been Karen U and Pam Cafritz.
Karen knew him the longest of anyone who was in NXIVM and Pam knew him the second longest.
Keith had Nancy testing her skills using his technology in order to learn his methods on Toni and others.
Toni wasn’t patient zero nor did she get anymore attention that others who were acting out.
That raises interesting questions about how much EMs were just the hypnotherapy and NLP that Salzman had been doing previously, versus something significantly different created under the aegis of NXIVM; and just what Raniere did or did not contribute to any developments. From what I can gather based on my knowledge of other things, the significant addition at some point was parts of the approach of Scientology auditing, whenever and wherever that came in from.
But I’d like to see it better documented and explained by someone with deeper knowledge. Unfortunately, the only good analysis I’m familiar with is the one done long ago that Rick Ross has on his website, limited to reviewing materials from the “intensive” with nothing about EMs:
A Critical Analysis of the Executive Success Programs Inc.
Typically, high control groups or cults, and their leaders and gurus, are given too much credit for their unacknowledged plagiarism of existing techniques, and repackaging of old processes to make them appear new. But sometimes some of their adaption and synthesis is interesting, or even somewhat innovative.
Yes. Right. So Nancy, all classy, with all of her super-psych EMs and high connections, wanted to get rid of the mess?
It makes sense to me that Nancy Salzman came to see Raniere as a hot mess who was trouble – and she was right, if it weren’t for his dicking around, she’d still be giving EMs and leading seminars/intensives, and living in a nice big house, not on her way to prison. The fact that she stuck with Raniere as long as she did shows that, as we’re seeing with others who found it suited them to spend years in his orbit, was a cynically calculating sort of person operating on the basis of ends-justify-the-means.
I assume that Salzman saw Raniere as the necessary charismatic frontman to grow things in a way that she never could have on her own. I wonder at what point she saw him has having become too much of a liability; I suspect it wasn’t until around the time he let Pam Cafritz die and started DOS.
Raniere is not charismatic. He’s a doofus who had wing women doing his bidding and building him up, just like Epstein and this guy: https://www.thedailysheeple.com/top-soros-fund-manager-ran-human-trafficking-sex-dungeon-of-imprisoned-women-in-nyc-lawsuit/
“Raniere is not charismatic. He’s a doofus”
I wonder if Scott ‘Amway’ Johnson ever watched his own personal power drink & milk video on YouTube……
*Hint there is a doofus in Texas with the initials SJ and he worked for an MLM…
You forgot the link. COWARD.
All I could find was video of Scott’s wacky cat, Chloe, playing with a milk carton ring.
I believe that even Frank has described a certain sort of charisma that Raniere had.
If he didn’t have some unusual attraction, the wouldn’t have had those wing women and others around him.