Even if the men had been branded on their groins and gave collateral, the supporters of Raniere say no one would think those actions constituted crimes.
Even if men started crying, saying they are victims, people would say, ‘After all, you are grown adults. Be responsible for your own actions.’
The supporters of Raniere even simulate a discussion of what the prosecutor would say to a branded male who cried he is a victim:
Prosecutor: “So the Mistress lied to you and did not tell you the brand on your cock is her initials and not the symbol of the four elements. So what? You were the fool that lied down naked and let someone brand you.”
Slave: “But I was ordered to seduce the Mistress when I was not attracted to her and I had to do it because she had collateral on me.”
Prosecutor: “Too bad, dude. You put yourself in that position.”
Slave: “As to collateral, I gave it voluntarily on two separate occasions – first to learn about the secret slave fraternity and again to join the slave cult after they told me I would be a slave. Then, after I joined, they wanted more and more collateral. That’s unfair.”
Prosecutor: “Hey, asshole, after you gave the first collateral of naked pictures, they told you, you would be a slave and have to do everything your mistress told you, and then you gave more naked pics of your cock to join the group? And you’re surprised, fool, that they asked for more collateral? Take the consequences, moron!”
Slave: “I was sex-trafficked because I had to have sex with the Mistress. I was afraid not to do it because if I didn’t, my collateral might be released.
Prosecutor: “But you told her you were fine with having sex with her when it was happening. She even asked you and you said you were fine with it. Only later, you withdrew consent. You should have told her at the time that you did not want to have sex. You’re a man. How could she know you did not want to have sex when you kept telling her how much you enjoyed learning from her? You lied to her. A man has the responsibility to let a woman know he does not want sex. Grow up, dunce!”
Of course, this fictional, reverse-the-genders scenario is not fair to the women terrified by what happened to them. But the followers of Raniere raise a good point. It is hard to have any sympathy for men since society considers that they are presumed responsible for their adult decisions.
But do men ever join a sex cult as slaves, get branded, and give collateral to a female Vanguard?
There seems to be at least one female Vanguard. She wrote an article about branding men: The importance of branding in male slavery
Someone calling herself Goddess Ezada Sinn believes in branding male slaves and can explain it. Her reasons are very similar to Raniere’s.
And Goddess is every bit as high a title as Vanguard.
Ezada writes, “I love to control, discipline and use men for My pleasure. To Me, this is not mere play, it is Who I am, 24 hours a day. Any male that I allow to be in My presence, can only do so as a servant or a slave.”
In language slightly reminiscent of Raniere’s word salad, she writes, “From all over the world, male creatures have voluntarily offered their services and submission to Me. And that is how I like it best: not to force you into submission, although I am certainly capable of doing so, but to show you that the small path that leads to your submission to Me, is the only way along which you can reach your true destination. Only as My servant or slave can you experience a certain amount of happiness and hope for salvation. For this reason, I strongly believe that all My servants and slaves are happy to serve Me.”
Ezada brands her slaves on the buttocks or the inner thigh. She is considering the forehead too.
By Ezada Sinn
… [T]he permanent branding by hot iron of a male slave by his Mistress has become the most powerful expression of Her total ownership of him. Of course, I keep all My male slaves locked in permanent chastity under My absolute control.
Furthermore, they are always collared when serving Me. So they are never in any possible doubt about their status as objects of My possession, belonging exclusively to Me.
But for those few slaves who I wish to own and use for the rest of their lives, I reserve the unique privilege of being branded. The collar can be removed. The chastity device can be unlocked and removed. But once I have branded a male slave on his body with the letters “ES”, he is My personal property and slave for the rest of his life. My initials will be on his body until he dies, never to be removed.
My brand-mark upon the body of My slaves is, thus, a very powerful, indeed the Ultimate symbol of My ownership. Wherever the slave may be, whatever he may be doing, he can never ever forget that he belongs to Me alone. he is My possession, My chattel, just an object to be used by Me. The brand continues to burn his mind long after I have applied it. he feels it constantly, and it keeps him permanently in a state of total submission to Me. he does not need to look at it to know that I own his body, I control his mind, that I rule his very soul. My initials are permanently engraved not only on his body, but on his soul. he can never escape from My power. he can never again serve another Mistress because She would immediately know My symbol on his body and know that he is My property…
The act of branding a male slave is a very significant event in his descent into total submission to Me, and is always conducted as part of a sacred ritual of submission and worship. The slave may never ask to be branded. Or he may beg for it, but only I, his owner, his Goddess, will decide whether or not to bestow this gift upon him. The slave can neither ask for it, nor refuse it, if I decide that he will become a branded slave. he must accept that it is My Will alone, and he must simply accept My decision.
I inform the slave that I, his Owner, have decided to permanently mark My property. I expect that he will immediately show his gratitude for this great honour, and beg to worship My boots in order properly to express it. For the ceremony itself, the slave is always immobilized in whatever way is available to Me at the time. The burning of My initials into his flesh is a moment of excruciating pain for the slave, and he must be prevented from struggling or moving, particularly, of course, the part of his body which is to bear My sacred initials. That is normally one of his buttocks, or his inner thigh. But I have read that the Romans often branded runaway slaves on their foreheads – perhaps I will some day do the same to a collared slave who attempts to escape from Me!
Ezada describes her branding ritual. She does her own branding.
Having secured the slave and totally immobilized the body part to be branded, the ceremony can begin. The slave must continuously recite his slave mantra and vows of lifelong obedience to Me. he knows what is coming. he knows that there is nothing he can do to prevent it. he knows he will suffer the most extreme pain for Me. This moment always arouses and excites Me, as I look into his imploring but helpless eyes. I see the submission, the adoration, the total surrender. I see the abject fear in his eyes as he watches Me heat the iron in the flame until it glows red hot.
I feel My total power over him as I hold the hot iron in front of his face and let him read the initials. Then, slowly and deliberately, as the slave’s devoted incantations and vows of obedience reach a crescendo of submission, I firmly press the hot iron to his buttocks. The slave invariably screams and tries to struggle against the bonds that hold him. But he cannot move, he cannot escape the pain, the burning of My sacred mark into his flesh. he can never escape. he will never again offer any resistance or defiance to me. he will know the meaning and the reality of being owned by Goddess Ezada Sinn.
If Ezada was a man and said these cruel things about women, we would call him a psychopath. Maybe she is.
But is there anyone out there that thinks of these men as victims?
And is there anyone out there who thinks that what Ezada is doing constitutes a crime that should result in her being imprisoned for 120-years?
In Sweden, a woman was convicted. In the group, they believed she would marry Jesus when he returned. She had some men who did sexual service to her, as representatives of Jesus. None of the men wanted to tell who they were and testify. This is very typical. So, she wasn’t convicted for that. She was convicted for violence. Her name was Bride of Christ.
—“ Maybe that is why The Wall syncs so well with the Wizard of Oz.“
Correction: Dark Side of the Moon, not the Wall. I didn’t smoke nearly enough pot in high school.
Re: Spoiler Alert.
Hey, you had 8 decades to see it. Anything that’s pre-Interwebz requires none 😆 😉
But damn you if you ruin Casablanca for me. I’ll get around to watching it sooner or later. 😆
Been reading the site since the day after the KAR sentencing (had heard in passing about NXIVM about the time that Jesus.. shit sorry, “Vanguard” was arrested and started researching it, finding the documentary series – watched them – and then, of course, found my way here). Been reading the articles and the convos that go along w/ it. So rather new in as far as the life of this ever-increasing bat-shittery goes, but been ingesting it full-on since.
Insofar as this Mistress goes – yes there are some similarities with KAR – but as I can see they exist wholly on the surface. She’s entirely transparent about what needs be done to join and what goes on once you join her “harem”. It’s NOT disguised as a feminist (or in this case maninist) empowerment sub-group that’s led by a sociopathic con-artist pulling the strings behind the scenes to set this “harem” up to be his mindless “fuck puppets”.
At the core of both:
– You’re paying money (in this case to fund her seemingly lavish lifestyle versus… I’m still not sure what people got from NXIVM.)
– BDSM dynamic to both – more flagrant in this one as it’s literally the core of the service provided.
– I could go on, but anyone with any sort of ability to compare the two can see the differences.
This looks like it would definitely be a good debate as to the legal aspects/ramifications as they mirror one another on the surface – but upon giving it anything more than a cursory look, you see that the two are quite dissimilar, so it doesn’t rate. The details are WHOLLY different – and in the Law, details matter. Details mean the difference between a guilty and not-guilty. Indictment verses no indictment.
Just look at Nicki Clyne – she’s EASILY just as guilty as Allison Mack on the surface – and even digging just a little deeper shows that she’s guilty (morally and legally) as fuck. But the DETAILS of the cases don’t rate an indictment on her. It’s all about what the State can prove in court, and even with this cult having multiple cases that were outright slam dunks, the State didn’t think they had enough to convict. Otherwise, you can be sure, they’d have indicted her ass.
Cheers – I’m sure you’ll see me again as legal stuff – especially the absurd – is totally in my wheelhouse.
Oh, and I’ve got a copy of “Wizard of Oz” sync’d up with “Dark Side of the Moon” if you’ve never seen it. Pretty cool. I think the DSOTM track stops after the first run-through though – which is where all of the “major” occurrences happen. But the B-track is the actual audio. *shrug* :man_shrugging:
In grad school, I knew some people into BDSM, and from what I could tell the strong ethics of informed consent that had to be continuously reaffirmed – probably crafted in part to avoid any possible legal problems – don’t really compare to Raniere’s DOS sex extortion scheme. This Mistress may be pushing the envelope, however.
There is a point, though, that if there were an exact male complement to DOS, it would likely not have garnered the same sort of attention as the coercion and branding of women — though I’m not absolutely sure that it might not have ended up being prosecuted, nonetheless. But it is an unfortunate example of our relative tolerance for undue influence, and the exploitation and abuse of people, that it took publicization of sensational mistreatment of women for Raniere and NXIVM to finally come under legal scrutiny.
A cutler can be a number of different insults.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cutler&page=2
Who actually uses it? Apparently this [redacted] person.
This woman is a prostitute not a leader of a cult.
I looked it up. She is being disingenuous.
I’m not judging her for being an escort I’m judging for pretending to something else.
If a grown adult woman independently decides to profit from her body that’s her business.
It’s more honest work than being an insurance agent, a chiropractor, a lobbyist, or many other sham jobs.
Sorry BUT,
Real men don’t want to be skull fucked, mind fucked, or any other kind of fuck except for a real fuck.
If you ask crass questions, you get crass answers.
—“If you ask crass questions, you get crass answers”
No need to justify your crassness to me, Nice Guy. Thanks for being honest. I’m here to learn. The male gender has always mystified and intrigued me.
Everyone has a little bit of every paraphilia. According to Mahler, for example, everyone is a little bit a sadist. But you have to be sick, if you want to cheat people into that. Raniere not only lied, he put it like an amazing feminist group! And he did it when Cafritz died. I’m sure he’d lost more than his mind at this point, that plus the intent of suicide of Camila and the history of extortion of the Bronfmans = DOS. Nobody talks about how Raniere ritualized sex, rape, and taking virginities. So, it is not just the deviant sex game, it is also some things that are illegal. If he wasn’t so powerful, if he didn’t have all these fucked-up women in line for his dick, if he didn’t have the same sadistic misogynistic sociopathic pattern as the families of these people,.he would just be what he is: an ugly, crazy, immature monster. I am sure that India and Nicole feel disgusted, just thinking about his fucking face. He hurt them to create a trauma to make them dissociate. Who would want that for a partner? You need extreme confidence to let go and surrender to a sadistic partner. Who would want that? Only Clare Bronfman and Allison Mack for sure.
Excellent insights as per usual, Mauricio. Allison is certainly not a shrinking violet. As for Clare, I get the feeling she might be a quiet storm.
“Interesting” – well they are very good at rationalizing things, right? It’s like they knew some shitty psychology or were part of some deviant group of people that had some fucked up morals right? I mean they call bullshit on Camilla photos, even now that Camilla has declared herself that Raniere started grooming her at the age of 13. Plus, like a couple of kids and women that say that Raniere raped them. Pedophilia is just a symptom, not the end of the day. Just the product of a very sick mind, that has other symptoms like lack of empathy, sociopathic, etc. All present in Raniere and his followers, like Clyne or Emiliano. The most important thing about Nxivm is not the conclusions of the perpetuators. I mean we know that Asunsolo, Sara, and Hatchette think they remain even after the whole pedophilia Luciferian shit, and if they don’t know that by now, that’s their own decision at this point. And I think it’s fair to say that they choose on what side they are, the Luciferian pedophile one that is. The important thing is all the things that Nxivm proves and all the loose ends that are left. So yeah, I am sure that the law was broken with Raniere because they didn’t let Rhiannon declare for example, because it would be too prejudicial. Riiiiiight, why let one of his biggest víctims tell her story? Because in politics they know that the way that a trial is resolved can apply to others, and nobody wants to talk about the pedophilia part of Nxivm, the classes to demócrats, that the plan of Raniere was to rule the world. So, yeah there should be another trial – one that truly judges and registers the true nature of Nxivm. Every single sadomasochistic asshole knows that if you are not clear in the intentions and if there’s no full comprehension and agreement of the masochist, it’s rape. So ,if you tell one lie to get you off, you are a rapist. That’s not interesting, it’s just a defender of a rapist bending reality, trying to defend a possible killer
Deep thoughts.
Mauricio, how the hell do you know so damn much about all this Luciferian shit? And about all the deepest inner machinations of this pedophilia mill? I don’t see how anyone who isn’t involved could know so much. I think you must be one of them, just trying to get in with and spy on the NXIVM opposition by pretending to be on our side.
Maurico, because I do not think English is your native language, I should explain that Alison is being sarcastic. And, of course, stirring the pot.
@Frank:
What are you, my flying monkey? I was being dead serious!
😉
Yes I felt I had to be your flying monkey in this case because Mauricio may have thought you really thought he was in a pedophile cult, which would have occasioned his denial and some upset. Normally I would not publish a comment accusing another commenter of being in a criminal organization without evidence, but as sarcasm it was really quite amusing.
Thank you. I truly appreciate it.
Omg I have a headache again from laughing so much today.
Alison-
Be wary. Someone might be part of the Illuminati(papal state) or
“Vatican Assassins” coursing with Tiger blood like Charlie Sheen.
Luciferians + pedophiles = Illuminate
Frank is not a flying monkey he is the dude
behind the curtain.
—“Frank is not a flying monkey he is the dude behind the curtain.”
Have you ever heard the phrase *spoiler alert*? I can’t believe you’ve just revealed the end of the film without first giving me a chance to click away. Not everyone likes to know exactly where they’re headed. Then again, I guess that is why Keith got 120. People do want to know who’s behind the curtain well before the tornado starts. Maybe that is why The Wall syncs so well with the Wizard of Oz.
Why did you post these pictures. You realize you just published these men’s collateral ?
LOL, it’s not collateral. This woman is a prostitute and the men are Johns getting freebies.
It’s free will, they’re not getting blackmailed.
The reverse sexism angle doesn’t work!
If she was giving a freebie, then don’t call her a prostitute. In those photos, she is not a prostitute, but a benevolent friend. Perhaps there was bartering going on, but is it prostitution if you don’t exchange any cash? I wonder if there any 100% barter-only hookers? If so, they are probably hippies.
If she wants to “independently” make money off her body it’s her business. If she is giving freebies it’s her business.
I don’t judge independent individual prostitution. I judge the men who traffic women.
If a woman freely and of her own volition wants to be an escort it’s her business.
Unfortunately most female escorts are being trafficked by some someone or some criminal group.
Volunteering. They volunteered to become Keith’s slaves. At first, everyone assumes the prescribed conditions with a clear mind. Why? Because you’re hoping for something? Reciproation? Love? Success? Then he gets into the machine, which he also chose, and when the alarm bell rings, he doesn’t exit. I don’t dispute Keith’s vile methods, and I’d even like to emphasize the word brainwashing, which some people don’t like. But first, it all starts on a voluntary basis. And just like a woman, a man can become a victim of his own desire, needs, ideas, etc. (as many reasons as possible). The leader depends on how to proceed. And Keith crossed that line, creating the crime category.
Now that we all free our delineations, I must ( humorously) add:
Any dude that struts around in a dog collar waiting to get his ass paddled and balls crushed is SERIOUSLY effed up.
I am actually open minded about stuff, BUT NOT THIS STUFF!!!!
JEDEM DAS SEINE! ( to each his own)
Jedem das Seine. Und ich füge noch etwas hinzu: Soviel er davon ertragen kann.
—But is there anyone out there that thinks of these men as victims? And is there anyone out there who thinks that what Ezada is doing constitutes a crime that should result in her being imprisoned for 120-years?
BUT-
These men are not being blackmailed by fabricated crimes they admitted to on film. None of the men have falsely accused their loved ones of being pedophiles and rapists while being filmed and recorded.
You’re not comparing apples to oranges
You are comparing COERCION to FREEWILL and it’s disgusting!!!
You’re not your
Typo
Coercion is disturbing
Coercion is disgusting
Here’s a philosophical question for ya:
Is there such a thing as consensual nonconsent?
*shrugs*
I think the Vanguard might have taught a class on that once or twice.
There is no philosophical question.
Blackmail and Freewill are mutually exclusive not intertwined.
I think you have stumbled on something important here. Coercion is when someone uses something on someone unwillingly. In this case, the person provided the collateral. Like a bank getting title to a house. The holder of the collateral and borrower are in an agreement bound by the collateral. Very different than blackmail!
Collateral is something the bank takes to cover (all or some of) their loss if the recipient of the loan defaults. Both the bank and the recipient know all of the information surrounding the transaction and nothing is secret between them.
Calling material “collateral” consisting of nude pictures, false stories, deeds to property, etc., for entrance into a secret organization based on not only not telling the entire truth, but outright deception, is not the similar thing how many times you want to focus on the “consent” aspect of it. There is no recouping of losses from the secret organization for a “default” on someone’s word via such material. It is just a means to bind someone to secrecy and to the group under the threat of release of material, which is indeed blackmail. This is the kind of word salad Raniere likes to engage in.
It’s a false equivalence and the NXIVM acolytes who defend this are simply terrible critical thinkers.
I don’t even want to participate in whatever display of madness is going on here — maybe someone wants to cop an insanity plea ? — but this comment stands out as a splash of sane.
The use of the term “collateral” is hilariously, horrifically inappropriate for the blackmail, the merciless extortion that NXIVM practiced from the get-go — for those “little bottles of poison,” as little Keith once put it as a teenager — that they continue to try to “hold over your head.”
So, let’s just stop with the pretense on “collateral.” It’s POISON stored and used for sextortion and blackmail, as intended.
—In this case, the person provided the collateral.
The women who came forward had no idea where things were headed or that a man(Keith Raniere) was involved.
DOS was supposed to be a women’s empowerment group not Raniere’s
FEMALE FUCK STABLE.
—The holder of the collateral and borrower are in an agreement bound by the collateral. Very different than blackmail!
Very different than blackmail?
Getting someone on film to admit to crimes they never committed or perhaps did commit and/or falsely accuse family members of heinous crimes; and then holding “it” over there heads is not blackmail?
The women thought that the collateral was a testament to their dedication/sincerity not that it would be used against them to
go on missions [feel forced to fuck] to romance Keith Raniere!!! Men were not supposed to be involved. The women were lied to from the get-go.
What don’t you understand?
I’ve finally cracked it. There should have been a *spoiler alert* at the bottom of the DOS contract that spilled the beans on everything. Prospective members could then choose to read the spoiler or place their hand over the spoiler, obscuring it completely, or take a super quick glance toward it out of the side of their eye to see if any bad words jump out at them but then cover the spoiler back up before they read too much. I don’t know much about law. Are spoiler alerts commonly used on contracts?
Alison-
At the very least there should have been a disclaimer and/or warranty.
Maybe a “legal waiver” to sign. Like “if you give collateral you will be totally fucked or actually fucked by Keith Raniere.”
It’s rumored Klaviger keeps a stack of legal waivers in his nightstand next to the lube.
Ezada Sinn sounds a lot like KR. From her website:
” I only like partners who are very obedient and are happy to give Me total control over their lives, not only sexually, but especially in the everyday life. I have zero interest in a relationship based on equality or brats who are trying to make Me play by their rules.”
“But My desire to be in total control over My partner doesn’t mean I do not care, love and respect him. Only people with great qualities and integrity can become a part of My harem. And those who are worthy of being Mine are happy to offer Me total control over them. It is a mutually beneficial relationship.”
I think this does demonstrate the inequality between men and women in this area. If any man openly said this sort of thing, he would get no customers. That’s why KR had to resort to lying and deceit whereas she can just openly say what she is doing.
—”If any man openly said this sort of thing, he would get no customers. That’s why KR had to resort to lying and deceit whereas she can just openly say what she is doing.”
True. She just lays it all out on the table so that there is zero mystery or suspense or any real fun for her.
—”She just lays it all out on the table so that there is zero mystery or suspense or any real fun for her.”
I didn’t mean to sound judgmental there. To be fair, I’m sure her transparency does help her bring in/bring back clientele. And she is doing her part to help keep deranged lunatics off the streets for a few hours or however long the clock is running. Bless!
Maybe so…. but the crimes I heard were requests invented by the victims. The sex trafficking act was oral sex between two women. An act requested by the victim. How is that coercion?
Let’s cut through the mental gymnastics and get to something actionable. If anyone finds themselves in the same position as trafficking victim Nicole, a situation where you truly are afraid, 100% don’t want to do what you are being told to do, yet aren’t sure if it’s possible for you to say no because the terms weren’t clearly explained to you in advance, try this one neat trick:
Say to your captor: “Oh, hold on, I think I forgot something on the stove.” Then get the hell outta there! Even the most sadistic meanie wouldn’t let your house burn down, particularly if you have pets at home. You’re welcome.
Allison you don’t run away when you’re being blackmailed.
The whole point of blackmail is
so someone doesn’t go to the police and does what you say.
There was a case, I think in Germany, of a man with a cannibalism fantasy/fetish. He was begging and imploring some sicko to legit eat him alive. Sicko obliged. If they had a contract, is it okay? No, it wasn’t. Use common sense peeps!
Re German Cannibal:
I wish I did not remember that story, but I do. The victim advertised online. In the end the perpetrator and victim cooked/sautéed the victims “balls” ate them. Then the victim was murdered.
The victim, before his murder, remarked his own balls tasted “pretty good”.
The whole act was filmed from beginning to end to to show the victim made his decision freely and consented to the whole thing.
Disturbing stuff!!!
Re German Cannibal:
How much you wanna bet that he went around telling everybody that he was a BDSM expert before this happened?
Not to spoil a good story, but can’t help but notice that none of the men in her photographs actually have a visible brand. She’s playing make-believe, Raniere wasn’t. Calling her a “female vanguard” is probably libelous.
wonderful pics of Roger Stone in the dog collar/leather hoodie/leash
Where, GSC?
The major difference is informed consent.
Nxivm conceals its practices with the garments of euphemism and denial.
This B describes her practices matter-of-factly and the whole thing quite literally dressed in the saucy, kinky garments of BDSM play.
If she starts to lie, extort, blackmail, starve, incarcerate, induce suicide, induce cancer, if she ever destroys a boy child’s life by drawing them prematurely into a sexual thrall – if she does all that and covertly brands a janus ident on those she calls ‘Fuck-Toys’ – then she’ll deserve every one of approximately 120 years a judge could, by law, throw at her.
Yes. Well said .
Very, Mary. And, NFW.
Nice pictures. Vanguard would be proud of the kneepad pix.
Vanguard is more of a lobster-bib type of guy. If you ‘catch’ my drift.
No. It is all about consent and the law. In the UK (and probably the US), you can consent up to a certain point and it must be an informed consent: e.g., you must know it was going to last 30 minutes without pain relief and be a cauterizing pen. The women did not know that.
It is exactly the same with men. If it is too hard, you cannot consent and that applies in the UK and I am sure the US too. In the UK, we have the case of R. v Brown. http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/cases/R-v-Brown-1993.php
KR will undoubtedly have read much about BDSM. He will have known about the case law and he will know all about informed consent and also to what acts you cannot consent to.
Lots of men online and indeed posting here and in real life are pretty fed up with women and unfairness at the moment and I totally get that but the law is genuinely sexually neutral here.
The smartest man in the world will know that the women needed to consent to exactly what was to happen – and secondly, that some things are so rough you cannot consent to them [caveat I do not know each US law’s states state by state but the second point is likely to be the case in the US as well as here in the UK].
I’m sorry, I’m really just trying to get to this one. Branding is displayed as a criminal item. In both situations, the participants allowed themselves to be branded. It is true that the principles were different, but facts and consent cannot be denied. That’s what they have in common. It’s their’s own will. Was there anyone in NXIVM who objected during the branding process? Or did you ask them to stop? I don’t know, I’m asking to see more clearly.
Men go to Sinn KNOWING WHAT they will get. They go to her BECAUSE of what she offers.
There is no deception.
NXIVM was deception. Women went for empowerment, and were lied to across the board — even about who the leader was.
In addition, unless it’s in Nevada, Sinn doesn’t offer sex.
Well said!
Well put FMN – there’s a huge difference between BDSM and what DOS was all about. It’s very rare that somebody willingly engaging in BDSM goes into any activity re: willing slavedom blind.
They know what it entails and rarely, if ever, is there any blindsiding. DOS was all about secrecy and the element of control but reeling the line in slowly and carefully, until the next thing a member knew, they were being branded.
As some people on the string have stated, DOS members could have said no – they made a choice. Actually, no they didn’t. Not a true conscious choice – they were all heavily under the influence of the word salad Raniere and Salzmann used to lure them in and hold them. That’s a polar step away from some guy who wants to be controlled by a woman. I know it’s hard for some people to grasp because we, as human beings, look at specific instances from our own standpoint – we say, ‘well I would never do that’, maybe you wouldn’t – or maybe you would if you’d been fed the same BS for months on and end been isolated by your group’s leader in an attempt to keep you away from the common sense of your friends and relatives.
Programming is a very real thing and DOS members were programmed. Ms. Sinn’s slaves go to her and PAY her to treat them like crap, although, I’m sure there are one or two that she doesn’t charge because that almost always seems to be the case with a lot of Mistresses.
My point is, w/ Ms. Sinn there’s no programming involved and if a guy wants ‘in’ and allows himself to be branded, he made that choice as a conscious choice. Now, if his majesty, The Vanguard, had required the males in SOP to be branded? That would be just as much as a crime as it was for the women in DOS – men in SOP were NOT of their right mind, no matter how ‘normal’ they might have come across. Very few people in NXVIM were “normal” during their tenure with the group, no one in a cult ever is.
I see zero similarities between two.
1. I am sure men PAY Sinn to be ass-whooped.
2. NXIVM wasn’t a lifestyle or sexual kink. It was advertised as Executive Success;
3. Men go to Sinn because she WILL feed their fetish. Women went to NXIVM FOR empowerment;
4. If Mistress was doing this to 15 year olds, she’d be in jail, too;
5. No word salad. No tearing down natural barriers to brainwashing.
HOWEVER, looking at her– she MAY have been a better judo champ than VANGUARD and could beat his ass with a paddle.
A key difference is that she is not using blackmail to get people to participate. She also does not seem to be lying to get people to join. She invites men directly into her lifestyle.
Keith used deception to get women. He used blackmail to keep them in the lifestyle. He smuggled illegal immigrants and leveraged their immigration status to force their participation in this lifestyle. That is very different than what this woman vanguard is doing.
Keith’s problem was that he got greedy. He wanted to have hundreds, thousands of slaves without investing time in convincing them to join the lifestyle. He could have had the same thing as this woman with consent without force. But he was lazy.
You wrote the differences very well. There are also repulsive brandings and male slaves, but the point Keith Raniere’s highlighted is that in this reverse case, can’t see it.
Is this a joke? Those guys pay for that to get off on it. If they didn’t pay, that woman wouldn’t even consider doing her BDSM thing with them. The fact that he is being compared with DOS is so ridiculous that I can’t find the words.
Come on Frank, this is just silly.
Did the article mention that the Goddess demands collateral from her male slaves? She is very open about her demands and that the slaves will have a brand as a symbol she owns them. The men know what they are getting into and there is no secrecy if they are going round with a brand on their head. So, that’s honesty and no blackmail from this slave master. I fail to see how it is the same thing. Is it just an excuse for the NXIVM 5 to speak ill of the witnesses by calling them fools, dunces, and assholes? Again, they are doing themselves no favours by mocking and insulting the victims. Just as I sighed in relief when Eduardo says he will keep opinion out of it and I think that I will be open to hearing what he has to say, I read this absolute childish role-playing trash.
The difference between this and DOS is coercion, blackmail, extortion vs consent. Here’s a bunch of adults choosing this freely. Not everyone’s cuppa tea – that’s ok. Don’t like it; don’t join. If it’s your jam, have a holy hell of a good time. And leave whenever you want. It doesn’t start out with “I got something on you so you better keep your word or else.” Let’s not forget “Oh, now that you wanna join, you’re committed for life…(sotto voce) cuz we got your collateral/blackmail.”
So if all these DOS ladies were invited to join Keith’s harem upfront – fun times! Sex with the Vanguard! A pyramid of slaves! Wanna wear his mark together? Market the hell out of it any way you want, but make sure the contract is plain for all to see and everyone CONSENTS with full knowledge.
But wait, “If you did that, no one would want to join!” Sure they would – the ones who were into would be into it. The ones who were “Fuck NO!” would walk away. Keeping the true nature under wraps until you’ve collected the blackmail (oops – COLLATERAL – my bad) – that’s where the legal line gets crossed. Doesn’t matter if it was done to men or women. And yeah – you probably would have far fewer recruits with honesty, but then you also wouldn’t be sitting in a jail cell with nothing but your own hand.
It goes to show you that KAR did DOS just as much for his jollies as for the sex. He wanted to see how many women he could “voluntarily” entrap in such a scenario. Of course, he hugely miscalculated like he did in his commodities trading with Bronfman money and that’s why he’s going to prison for a long time.
Frank-
In my very humble opinion you should perhaps one day publish this comment as an article.
I was a member of a female led self improvement group. I was branded on my penis [in the group it is called the slave organ]. When I am flaccid, which is most of the time because I am kept in a chastity belt, my brand appears to form the initials TINY, which I was told represented the four elements – Truth, Industry, Nirvana, and Youthfulness.
Imagine my surprise when Mistress Yoni unlocked my belt, and I was given permission by my Mistress to worship her glorious cheeks, and sport an erection, I caught a glimpse in the mirror and saw that my brand spelled out my Mistress’s full name, Tiaraed Niacinamide Yoni Asana.
While I consented to be branded, I did not know it was her name. I want to withdraw consent. Because I am a man, can I do that?
I can’t decide if you are trolling or not. I am guessing trolling because trying to figure out the logistics of branding someone just right so “Tiny” appears when flaccid but a 30 character phrase appears when hard is no small feat. Its actually quite impressive. Since each dick is different, that is no small or easy thing to accomplish without a great deal of participation from the one being branded.
But taking question at face value… you are probably screwed. You consented. You can withdraw it now but its still branding. Tattoos can be laser removed but branding is essentially forever without surgeries to literally remove that area of skin.
There was a reason Raniere wasn’t charged for physical assault of the woman he branded – they volunteered for it. The failure is partly on you for not trying to find out exactly what the branding would be before hand. There is trust and then there is blind trust without question. The number of people you blindly trust should be in the realm of 1 or 2 and definitely not a Mistress whose own agenda is to get off on the power she has over you.
If she had lied about it, than might have the foundation of an assault case. Considering the sexual nature and most people’s hang-ups I doubt the police and DA would pursue it but at least the threat might allow you to get a monetary settlement from the lady to see if can’t get the branding softened or hidden with tats.
I tried to get the police interested but the police chief laughed at me for being so stupid as to get my penis branded.
I said Mistress made me do it. she had a lot of naked pictures of me in my collar and on all fours. If she released this pics I would lose my job.
I would have never gotten branded if I had know what the brand meant.
How will I ever find a woman to rule me with my ex Mistress’ name oh my slave organ. Who will ever have me ?
Mistress ruined my life.
Sub doggy dog. These are so funny. Carry on joking, please.
Were you the commenter behind the Amway troll a long time ago? I nearly cried laughing from one particularly long comment on an article by Mr. Johnson. I don’t want to mock the nature of the article but the comment section turned into the funniest thing. Your comments here reminded me of that.
Had
Hm. That is a tough one, Sub Doggy Dogg. Reminds me of the time I was getting hot and heavy with a guy in the afternoon. The train was about to leave the station when, as if by an act of God, a breeze lifted the room-darkening curtain and let some light in. That mthfckr. He was trying to get it past me that a flag had already been planted via some other bitch’s initials. No-can-do-ski, sweetheart. Needless to say, I was furious. But that’s a story for another time.
It’s too bad because it sounds like you have a lot to offer, but you are probably royally screwed for life.
It has been a hard pill to swallow – I was deceived and manipulated by my Mistress – I now feel I was raped every time Mistress ordered me to have sex.
Even though I begged her for sex, she ordered me to do it.
But Alison, I do have a lot to offer. Could you, for instance, overlook my penile brand realizing I was blackmailed and coerced into being branded?
Are you in the market for a sadder but wiser slave? If so, I am prepared to hand you the key to my chastity belt tomorrow.
@Sub Doggy Dog
I’m not a fan of damaged goods, but you sound special. I’ll think about it.
@Sub Doggy Dog,
I thought about your offer, and concluded that since you don’t know me from a can of paint, it would be irresponsible of me to accept it. However, all hope is not lost. If you can learn to practice patience and pace yourself a little, who knows. You might find that special someone when you least expect it.
His post is pure trolling, like the other one you responded to by Tuesday Buttons. He’s probably an red piller or a NXIVM acolyte.
The intent to the post is subtle mockery of women (therefore, effectively misogynistic) and what he considers the farce of coercion that is DOS and its branding. He hates the fact that women can change their minds after the fact, as if that is all that occurred here, that the cult milieu in which, and years of indoctrination and ultimately coercion that was enacted, never existed.
It’s the Raniere canard, you ultimately consented, forget everything else because there are no ultimate victims. In effect, such a rationalization could be extended to a woman who just lies there while she’s being raped with a gun pointed to her head as someone who ultimately consented to the act too.
Maybe. Or, his intent may have been to be funny. Either way, this’ll learn him. (and teach Natashka a lesson for laughing at misogynistic mockery of women – shame Natashka. Shame.)
Actually, there is a third possibility – maybe erasend’s indecision was correct and he’s not trolling… I bet Frank would be willing to post a picture of the entire “Tiaraed Niacinamide Yoni Asana”, if it helps clear up the intent of Dog.
Nut Job-
When you are Sub Doggy do you go into character or are you more of a method actor?
Up until now, I’ve only been myself. Pre-me, I used to go by the very entertaining “anonymous”. Although, I guess I did tinker aroung with some “pretending to be a tranny-prowling Texan” posts.
I was coerced. Mistress took lots of pictures of me in my dog collar with my chastity belt on. And photos of my reddened ass from being spanked.
She told me if I didn’t seduce her, she might post my pictures on my local supermarket bulletin board.
One day, she ordered me to be tied and blindfolded. While Mistress sat on my face nearly suffocating me, another person gave me fellatio. Later found out it was Poopie, one of her slaves. She also forced me to get her coffee and run errands and when her pet poodle died, I had to bury it in the backyard for no pay.
Is this sex trafficking and forced labor?
Please, I have read the Nxivm case, and if I were a woman, I know you would all sympathize with me. Please help me get a lawyer
Once upon a time, I was on a city bus. Some creep sitting behind me got the idea to “sneakily” slowly slide his hands onto my shoulders to feel my silky shirt. Maybe he was trying to sniff my hair too. Who knows? I decided not to give him the satisfaction of a response, so I just sat there and enjoyed a great shoulder massage until he got freaked out and ran away. it had been a long week and the shoulder massage was just what I needed. I’m still not sure if I consented to that shoulder massage.
I think we can all agree that the victims did make some decisions — some really bad and regrettable decisions. But look, no one had to hurt any of them. That was evil with no other purpose than to be evil. No one had to be a criminal, collecting collateral and practicing coercive control. I do not have the right to do that to anyone male or female, and I think, yes, of course, men could still be victims of that. It’s extortion. Brainless cults can spin it any way they want, but threatening someone in the ways they did was illegal, and that’s why their parasite leaders wind up dead or in jail (maybe both)
It’s unbelievable how pathetic they must be to defend someone who appears to have been a child rapist by all the evidence, and it’s simply psychopathic to brand another human being. I think if they were humane people, they would never advocate or condone anything like that, but who would expect anything good from them?
They seem to want to think they’re intelligent by concocting new dialogues in their simulations, but they already crashed and burned in court lol… They weren’t clever warning the judge that he was “being watched” https://thefallofnxivm.com/the-coverage/raniere-facing-possible-life-sentence-wants-judge-to-know-hes-being-watched/ — I couldn’t think of a worse way they could’ve handled things.
Apparently whoever wrote this article has never heard of BDSM in which master/slave are common terms. Anther term, used in a different context, is dominant/submissive
Its not a cult. Its a sexual kink. An entirely, 100% voluntary kink that does not use blackmail (collateral), peer pressure, and hero worship as pressure points to force the voluntary behavior. There also usually isn’t a harem of “victims” who exist to recruit more victims. The size of the group involved with the woman is also not measured in double digits with long term plans for a bizarre pyramid scheme to expand the size of the harem.
In this kink, if the slave said “No” to the branding, that would be the end of the discussion. If they had said “I am not sure, can we discuss”, then a conversation would have started about it. It sure as @#$@ wouldn’t start with “But first we need intimate stories or images before we can discuss this further.”
BDSM is not like the nonsense you read/see in the Fifty Shades of Grey books which were a bad writer’s mental fantasy of what she thought it was based on bad porn and google image searches. This clearly is about all the article author knows too about the subject too.
As for if the police would actually treat it differently, well I guess we will never know. Has there ever been a woman only led cult? If so has that cult engaged in branding? I suspect the Venn diagram of those events is zero. Cult creation is mostly only the result of white males.
About the only thing this article does is remind me that Raniere would still be enjoying his harem if he not for his pathological ego. He had it all, including the near bottomless pocketbook of millionaires, but he just had to go that one step further. the collateral alone should have been enough because it got him the naked pics, the ownership, forced loyalty, and sex he craved. The branding was so unnecessary because by then, he literally owned their minds and bodies already. He didn’t need to sign them. Without the branding, NXIVM would still be going strong and possibly added more beautiful women for him to exploit for his own pleasure. It was a massive amount of egotistical stupidity.
I can’t tell what this article writer’s nonsense goal is other than tp illustrate they don’t understand a kink. Nor do they seem to appreciate that what Raneiere did was really rape. Maybe not in the legal sense, but in the moral sense. None of it was consensual and the law simply was not written to account for such a bizarre scenario that he created. In short, what is described here is consensual, what Raniere did was not. That is the difference between sex and rape. It speaks poorly of this person that they do not seem to understand that.
If it is something humiliating that a man does, it’s a kink. But if a woman does it, it’s rape. Or a cult.
No. The difference is consent.
Your sexual insecurities don’t make the sex act wrong or illegal. Nor do people’s decision to not interpret them as the same thing.
But you do unintentionally make a valid point. Did Raneire actually commit rape?
There is a very strong argument for no. It was shown in both documentaries. While some of the women involved in the branding were not happy about it at the time, they still participated, they still engaged in the pseudo master/slave dynamic, they continued to provide collateral. Several remain happy with their branding.
Those that decided they hate it only really came to that conclusion when AFTER their significant others or family got involved (like in India’s case). Best I could tell, none of them independently achieved that conclusion by themselves, they were in effect forced into it. So, in effect, Raniere did perform a bastardized version of BDSM except, in my viewpoint, I think his use of collateral/blackmail made it null & void and thus rape. But, again, there is no meaningful legal way to account for this bizarre scenario. It’s probably why rape charges were never attempted because proving it would be damn near impossible to prove since most of the acts remained voluntary to the very end.
So if take that viewpoint, then a variation of your ‘ew sex stuff I don’t’ like’ statement is “If it is something humiliating that a man voluntary does, it’s a kink. But if a woman does it after providing blackmail material, it’s rape. Or a cult”
I’m insecure about the subject, and I can’t put it very well in English. But I can identify with your comment the most. It’s got everything I thought it would be, but I couldn’t have said it like that.
Well formed distinction. Thank you.
Did anyone else spit out their drink when watching Seduced and India finally starts dishing about the sexy bits and she looks like she is about to say he..nm, I’ll stay ladylike… but then says, “And then he…performed… oral sex on me. And it seemed to go on for hours!”
And then didn’t she say something like she felt like she left her body and was in another dimension? How will she ever recover from that unspeakable horror? Sadly, she might never get over it.
–And then didn’t she say something like she felt like she left her body and was in another dimension?
She was referring to disassociation, not some pleasurable, ethereal experience. The former occurs in times of fear in which the body freezes and the mind goes elsewhere to attempt to suppress and block out what is occurring to it to reduce the trauma of the experience. The mind figuratively disassociates from the body, hence the term. Unfortunately, once the event ends, the trauma is typically trapped in the subconscious or the body and needs to be released otherwise it can cause ramifications to the person’s life down the road for many years.
Fast answer: not disassociation but ego dissolution/ spiritual transcendence which does usually re-assimilate once all the pieces fall back together post-expansion.
No, it was disassociation you cutler.
What’s a ‘cutler’?
—”No, it was disassociation you cutler.”
You could be right, but I can’t be sure until you tell me what cutler means. I have a friend who is a junior high teacher who has the most amazing database of current-day slang on his computer, but he hasn’t gotten back to me on it yet. Or perhaps it’s an archaic term?
It’s another word for pussy. As in, Cutler’s ribs are still sore and Hoyer’s starting again.
—“ It’s another word for pussy. As in, Cutler’s ribs are still sore and Hoyer’s starting again.“
Ohh! ok. Yeah, I guess that’s pretty spot on.
I think it was a typo, the intended word was “culter.” LOL
Scott would consider using a moniker and not ending everything with LOL?
—”I think it was a typo, the intended word was “culter.” LOL”
Ohhh! I’ll bet you’re right! Scott, you are so smart! LOL
I finally got to read the professional comment of a BDSM expert next to the article. But, you know, I know a group where male slaves pay hard money to humiliated. Their leader sees himself as a Deity, and under the main leader, there are several sub-conductors who advertise online and recruit. They don’t focus on sex, but more on mental ailing with those with similar “values.” It was a great article, thank you, Frank Parlato.
It’s called Findom as in Financial Domination. What makes it truly amazing is most of the time the master and slave may never actually meet in person and almost never is actual sex involved. The domination is entirely through financial transactions where the woman spends the guy’s money or receives gifts from him. The relationship (for lack of a better word), even means she never knows what the guy looks like or his name that is doing the spending. If you think about it from the woman’s perspective, what difference does it make what his name is or what he looks like as long as the money flows and doesn’t require sex in return?
Key part remains – it’s voluntary. The guy can just stop spending money at any time of his choosing.
—”The domination is entirely through financial transactions”
Yes. That kind of scenario came to my mind when I heard about how KR played Clare. You know she loved/hated it. Or maybe not. Maybe the Yenta knows something?
—”I finally got to read the professional comment of a BDSM expert next to the article.”
I hate BDSM experts. They’re boring. Always pontificating nonsense about ethics and avoiding the kidneys. Probably wear black mock turtlenecks. What I say to them is: Go play with some rope in the corner and shut the f@ck up already!
(kidding)
Here is another tip. Don’t be too quick to put your faith in self-proclaimed BDSM experts. The first screening question you should ask someone you meet who says they are a professional BDSM expert is: “Who died and made you the mayor of Kinkville?”
Their response to that inquiry will provide you with a lot of useful data.
Alison. I was being sarcastic, but it didn’t work out well. And I don’t wear turtlenecks. I prefer the uniform.
She is a psychopath. And gross. But at least she’s upfront and doesn’t mask her intentions and her group as “bad-ass” male empowerment.
And that’s the difference between living free and 120 years in prison.