This is part 2 of Allison Mack Through the Looking Glass – a series on how the former actress and sex slave was described during the trial of her master, Keith Alan Raniere, the erstwhile leader of Nxivm.
Allison during the trial came across – via witness testimony – as both a victim and a perpetrator.
This is the fourth day of trial. Mark Vicente, a filmmaker and leader [high rank Green Sash] of Nxivm is on the witness stand.
He is the second witness to be called. The first was a DOS slave named Sylvie.
In addition to that, the women who were hanging around Allison were looking emaciated too. For the first time, the jury is hearing about Raniere’s plan to starve and break his women – starting with Allison Mack.
Kristin Kreuk brought Allison Mack into Nxivm, then wisely got out. Allison Mack did not get out – at least not until after she was arrested. When she appeared on Smallville, Mack was well proportioned and appeared healthy.
This testimony of Vicente suggests Allison was under Raniere’s thrall and quite likely a victim of the vicious one’s self serving lustful and power mad desires.
Mark also testifies about the number of women Raniere was having sex with – he pegged it at 20 – and that included Allison Mack.
Vicente is being examined by Assistant US Attorney Mark Lesko.
Lesko: Do you recall at a certain point in time certain people in the NXIVM community developing unusual physical appearances?
Vicente: Yes. That… sort of came to a head for me in and around December of 2015, when I became very concerned for two reasons. … one was there was so many of the examples in the [Nxivm] education about not giving into comfort and choosing principal instead. … in other words, don’t go for the ice cream … focus on your calories. … I thought to myself, ‘why is there this obsession with weight and calories? What is going on? Is there no other metaphor that can be used? Why it was always the cake or the pizza? … – why is that the grand example of… weakness….’ then I began to see a … lot of the women … becoming rail thin. I mean, to the point that it just looked unhealthy to me.
They looked pale… it was beginning to look almost like their skin was translucent. And I saw the kind of food they were eating … and … their fingers were turning the color of [their] food.
They were eating cucumbers all the time or squash…. When I asked, ‘Why that?’ ‘Well, because it’s low calories and it fills me up….’. And I just got concerned because everybody just looked really unhealthy — not everybody. Some of the women just looked really unhealthy. They were looking skeletal. I could start to see their bones under their flesh, and I thought to myself, ‘something’s not right here.’
Q Was there anybody in particular who looked exceedingly skinny?
A My greatest concern back then was Allison Mack. I was very concerned. I … was spending a lot of time with her back then, and I just couldn’t understand why … her weight was dropping so much.
And also accompanying the weight loss was sort of this tired, kind of out-of-it look. You know, she sometimes couldn’t focus very well. And to me, it looked like a kind of malnutrition. So I was deeply concerned about that, and so I went to talk [to] Keith Raniere about it.
Q I’m showing you what has been admitted as Government’s 39. Do you recognize that photograph?
A Yes, Allison Mack.
Q So you … had a discussion with the defendant [Raniere]. What did he say?
A Well, I went to see him. I think he was at that point living at 21 Oregon Trail. I went to see him, and I said,’I’m concerned that all these people have this idea that skinniness is the ultimate objective.’ And I said to him, ‘It also worries me deeply given that in this society right now, with the obsession, with the bodies and models and everything, I don’t think it’s healthy to tell a woman that her weight is tied to her enlightenment or her growth or whatever. It’s just unhealthy. It’s … bad. Women, and especially young women have enough issues already with their appearance given the culture we live in, why do that?’
And he said to me, ‘Well, you know, I work with different people in different ways, and there’s different reasons for different things.’ …. it wasn’t making any sense whatsoever.
And I said, ‘But Allison — you know, what about Allison? She’s — you know, she looks terrible…. if this is her having some kind of breakthrough, I don’t what’s going on. Then I don’t understand breakthroughs because she looks horrible.’
And … I said too ‘You know, she looks broken.’
And he said, ‘Well, I’m trying to break her.’
And I was like ‘uh-huh. Okay. Well, she’s not looking healthy.’
And he said, ‘Well, she’s still getting her period.’
And I was like, ‘Okay;’ I wasn’t sure where else to go because…. I was thinking to myself, ‘Well, you know, you can take a pill and still do a whole bunch of things….’
But in the end, I just backed away, because I couldn’t get any clear answers, and I felt like – I just think something’s wrong and I can’t quite put my finger on what it is.
Q In addition to Allison Mack, do you recall any other women in the community who looked skinny?
A Many of the people that had some kind of a close relationship with him. Some of them that might be in the inner circle were extremely skinny…. Daniela Padilla, … Monica Duran, a number of the women that were spending time with Allison Mack …. I was concerned about India [Oxenberg’s] weight.
There seemed to be a kind of a club of young women gathering around Allison Mack and they just didn’t look healthy. … maybe they were healthy by Fashion Week’s standards … which is not healthy in my opinion, but they just did not at all look good. They were just obsessed with eating as little as possible, and they would literally measure their calories on a scale. There was all this measuring going on. And there was also this obsessive penitence that they would do if they messed something up.
You know, so if somebody was on a certain number of calories and they messed something up, then they would cut their calories. You know, and when I was hearing that people were cutting it down to 500 calories or 300 calories, something’s not — I mean, okay. So I’m fat. But, something’s not right.
Q Showing you what’s been admitted as Government’s 45. Do you recognize that photograph?
A Yes, that’s Daniella Padilla.
Q Was she [Dani Padilla] one of the women who concerned you?
A Yes. She had always been skinny, but it looked to me to be getting worse.
Q Was Marianna [Fernandez] skinny?
A Very.
Q Showing you what has been admitted as Government’s 26. Who is in that photograph?
A That is Marianna.
Q Was Nicki Clyne skinny?
A She was also very skinny, yes….
Q Are you familiar with a woman named Sylvie?
A I am.
Q Was Sylvie one of the women who was skinny?
A Exceedingly, yes.
Q Are you familiar with a woman named Kerstin?
A Yes.
Q Was Kerstin skinny?
A Very. She was one of the ones I was very concerned about.
Q When the defendant told you that he was trying to break Allison Mack, what was your interpretation of that comment?
[Raniere’s defense attorney Mark Agnifilo spoke up: I’m going to object.
Judge Nicholas Garaufis: As to form. Sustained.
LESKO: I’ll rephrase, Your Honor. Thank you.
BY MR. LESKO:
Q When the defendant told you that he was trying to break Allison Mack, what was your reaction to that comment?
A I was disturbed because a part of me thought ‘okay, well, so we’re trying to break pride. Okay? I mean, I get that.’ But I couldn’t understand why somebody withering away was somehow going to fix that. That was the part I didn’t get. And – the thing is, I was at this point beginning to ask Raniere a lot of questions, but there was still the issue of my rank and his rank. So I had to be very careful that only in private would I ask him certain questions, not in public. And then also even in private, this was somebody who was, like — it’s like questioning the king, you know? Like at a certain point just slow down and be careful.
So I would often just nod my head and think, ‘okay. Well, he’s got some understanding that I don’t have and maybe there’s some wisdom I just can’t get because of something he knows.’ I don’t share that [view] anymore, but that’s what I thought at the time.
Q During the time period you were involved with NXIVM, did you became aware that the defendant was in sexual relationships with any women in the community?
A I did.
Q How did you acquire that information?
A Well, one of the ways was when Barbara Jeske died. After she died, he spoke to me and said this was like losing a wife for him. And I’d never heard him say that before. And suddenly it occurred to me, ‘Oh, I didn’t realize that that was the relationship.’ That was quite a surprise to me.
And it sort of made sense because, you know, he said to me once, like when it comes to having sex he really needs to know somebody, and – it takes at least a year to really, really know somebody before that happened. So I thought okay.
Well, you know, he’s known her a long time. I guess that kind of makes sense.
… And then in 2017, he told me that he had conceived with Marianna, and I was surprised that I didn’t – I didn’t really — even though they were together all the time, I didn’t know that that was their relationship, and it was a disturbing conversation in general to me.… I had deep concerns about it. And I said to him… ‘well, I guess congratulations are in order,’ and I just left it alone. But I began to develop a picture in my mind. Okay. So there’s lot more going on than I realize.
Q So I think you testified previously that the defendant resided with Marianna and Pam Cafritz; is that correct?
A Correct.
Q And did you have an understanding as to when actually that baby with Marianna was conceived?
A When we spoke about it, the baby was conceived around the time that Pam Cafritz was dying or had just died. ….
Q Approximately how many members of the NXIVM community did the defendant have sexual relations with?
A I think it was in excess of 20.
Q Did you witness the defendant being physically intimate with women in the community?
A I did.
Q How so?
A Well, generally speaking when he would meet one of the… younger women that spent time with him, he was always very intimate with them, you know, hand holding, touching, walks sometimes hand in hand. You know, kissing on the lips, a lot of tenderness, the kind of tenderness that is not usual in a corporate environment. And then, you know, I saw at one point, you know, an instance that gave me pause.
But other than that, it was, generally speaking, just the way he was with each of them. The way I saw it is they were like almost like giddy call girls and he was kind of the connect with each of them in different ways. But there was a lot of… physical contact and whispering.
Q Did you witness the defendant being physically intimate with Clare Bronfman?
A I did.
Q How so?
A Same kind of things — kisses, talking, there was a lot of hand, the touching and there would be this sort of fingers intertwine and then rolls around, that kind of stuff. As I had said, it’s not just, you know, corporate buddies hanging out, there’s something else.
Q Did you witness the defendant being physically intimate with Allison Mack?
A I did, the same kind of thing.
***
Stay Tuned For Part 3 where Mark Vicente describes more of how Allison Mack got sucked into the cult of Nxivm and gradually became Raniere’s slave.
[…] Part 2: Allison Mack Through the Looking Glass: Trial Evidence Shows Allison Mack Was Starved and Co… […]
It’s interesting that Raniere told Vicente he was breaking down Mack and that she was still having periods, but Vicente couldn’t put 2+2 together and understand that breaking down (starving) the women so they didn’t have periods and therefore would be unlikely to be able to get pregant when he f*cked them were the same thing. Raniere obviously not only liked skinny women to make them look like little girls, but he also didn’t like spending money on abortions, as it would take away from his pizza and hot sauce budget.
Not buying the idea that Mack was a victim. Nor the speculation that she was confused because Raniere “made her” starve herself. When Raniere was telling the women that they needed to lay off the pizza and ice cream, why didn’t Mack poke her forefinger in his pudgy belly and laugh at him? That’s my question.
When he told her about having to take a cold shower as punishment, why didn’t she say “no?”
Was “no” not in her vocabulary?
Keith Raniere didn’t starve her. That wasn’t in his power. She did these things to herself. He told her she should do it and she obeyed him. Because she’s a weak willed fool.
“This testimony of Vicente suggests Allison was under Raniere’s thrall…” That’s a dramatic way of putting it, and “thrall” is an interesting word. Its modern meaning is metaphorical and hyperbolic, a linguistic exaggeration-for-effect. The word originates in Old Norse, “thræll” which is usually translated as simply “slave” but in the Sagas it refers to the dregs of society, considered almost subhuman. Thralls were people captured during raids outside Scandinavia, farmers and peasants carried off as war booty. To be a thrall meant to be enslaved by huge men armed with axes and swords, forced to do backbreaking labor for them, to be housed with their livestock, badly fed and beaten for fun. That’s what it meant to be a thrall.
Allison Mack was no thrall. She did what Raniere told her to do because she was stupid. Or else because it’s what she wanted to do. Maybe she enjoyed being mistreated and ordered around by him, I dunno. There are guys who like it when their girlfriend orders him to lick her feet. C’est la vie.
As for Mark Vicente, his self-serving testimony makes me sick. He’s quite the hero in his own mind. He goes on at length about how “concerned” he was about poor Allison. Poor thing was so skinny. He’s so brilliant, his powers are so great, he even diagnosed her as malnourished by simply looking at her. Wow, who needs medical school when such amazing diagnostic powers purely instinctual!
What did Mark, this knight come to the aid of fair maiden Allison actually do about it? He had a private word with Vanguard about his concern. Vanguard did not share his concern, however, and that was the end of that. Sir Galahad slinks off with his tail between his legs, because, you know, “you don’t question the king”.
Is this clown for real? The f’ing KING!?
Mark Vicente worked for Nxivm, promoting it enthusiastically, until it collapsed around his ears. Then he headed for the exit and suddenly had all these moral qualms. I’m not buying that either. I find it repulsive that he portrayed himself this way at the trial.
Typical Actaeon mouthing off without real knowledge. Vicente didn’t leave because NXIVM collapsed. NXIVM collapsed because he, along with Edmondson and Ames, finally left and started feeding Frank info, and then with Oxenberg went public. You apparently know as little about NXIVM as you do about Scientology or your beloved Smallville gal.
“Was “no” not in her (Allison’s) vocabulary?”
If one watches the typical two-year-old child out in public his or her favorite word is “No!”.
And children are not shy about using it.
While we are on the subject of Mark Vicente, he leaped from the bogus Ramtha cult to the equally bogus NXIVM cult with hardly a heartbeat between the two.
And at trial, Vicente admitted to altering ten videotapes in the Rick Ross trial.
In short Mark, Vicente tampered with the evidence and obstructed justice.
———————————————
The next topic concerned an inquiry that Vicente received from Raniere about whether he could remove part of a videotape in a way that was undetectable.
The inquiry came in June 2008 during the midst of what turned out to be NXIVM’s 14-year lawsuit against Rick Ross.
Raniere explained to him that certain things needed to be removed from several videotapes because leaving them in would put the Rational Inquiry patent at risk (Vicente only learned later on that there was no such patent).
The parts of the videotapes that had to be removed concerned various training session in which Nancy Salzman had claimed that Raniere’s “technology” could cure certain diseases.
As Vicente explained it, the process for altering the videotapes was quite involved – and definitely amounted to the falsification of evidence.
All in all, more than ten videotapes were altered to remove problematic content before they were turned over to Rick Ross’ attorneys as part of the discovery in that case.
https://artvoice.com/2019/05/12/mark-vicente-in-depth-review-part-iv/
Actaeon:
“Not buying the idea that Mack was a victim.”
Not our problem, it’s often that stupid people are closed to realistic ideas…live in your fantasy and enjoy.
” Nor the speculation that she was confused because Raniere “made her” starve herself.”
Except it’s not a speculation but a scientific fact you fool…even when a fact is scrubbed in your face you refuse it.
“When Raniere was telling the women that they needed to lay off the pizza and ice cream, why didn’t Mack poke her forefinger in his pudgy belly and laugh at him? That’s my question.
When he told her about having to take a cold shower as punishment, why didn’t she say “no?”
Was “no” not in her vocabulary?”
You think you are smart but the reality is that you are just showing how stupid you are by asking these question exclusively for Allison.
EVERYONE COULD SAY NO but for the coercion!
Allison wasn’t coerced? be carefull before you make a bigger fool of yourself!
“Keith Raniere didn’t starve her. That wasn’t in his power. She did these things to herself. He told her she should do it and she obeyed him. Because she’s a weak willed fool.”
It was in his power, he controlled everyone and everything…Nicole said “yes” for sex (while not wanting), i don’t see you questionning this.
You manage to actually find excuses for Raniere and try to disprove SCIENTIFIC FACTS…get a life, loser.
“Allison Mack was no thrall. She did what Raniere told her to do because she was stupid. Or else because it’s what she wanted to do.”
What an idiot with no insight…let’s forget that there is the matter of collateral ,huh?
All the victims said yes at first and you know why? because of the COLLATERALS!
Allison was under collaterals too.
“As for Mark Vicente, his self-serving testimony makes me sick. He’s quite the hero in his own mind. He goes on at length about how “concerned” he was about poor Allison. Poor thing was so skinny. He’s so brilliant, his powers are so great, he even diagnosed her as malnourished by simply looking at her. Wow, who needs medical school when such amazing diagnostic powers purely instinctual!”
Once again, show how stupid you are…first, we know the diet they were following and malnutrition is a fact
Second, Parlato show the pics to show how skinny she was and you still choose to ignore the fact.
Must be sad to be you!
“Is this clown for real?”
It’s quite funny you ask this question because i was wondering the same about you…
I advice you to concentrate on subject you know or understand (which isn’t much, you can still talk casually about the weather…it’s already something).
I really should not waste my time answering such a ridiculous comment but then i would never write on any of your comments…you fail to say 1 notable thing.
Frank,
Two Cankle pictures in one article?
Shadowstate1958 and Scott Johnson must be having full body orgasms…..
….. i’m pretty sure Shadowstate went into cardiac arrest and needs a change of underwear.
Frank has no problem appeasing the lowest common denominator. I’m a little worried about how this will impact our Fri night plans…
“Allison was just at the same level as any of the victims.” Anonymous
Poor, Poor Allison!
We’re all vicitims.
Nobody is responsible for anything.
Living in isolarted Saratoga County where there are no grocery stores and no restaurants.
And neighboring Albany , Schenectady and Renssalear counties also lack grocery stores and restaurants.
No wonder poor, poor Allison wasted away to skin and bones.
The poor girl probably forgot how to eat.
Even the wealthy Clare Bronfman, who is still worth an estimated 200 million dollars, is a victim who wasted away to skin and bones.
Clare Bronfman is a victim.
#FreeClareBronfman
Allison and the other NXIVM members must have survived by eating the bark off of trees.
Do you know who else was a victim?
Charles Manson.
As a child Manson was placed in an Indiana reform school where he was beaten and raped.
“He Was Sexually Abused At School
After three escapes from Gibault School for Boys, authorities sent Manson to the Indiana School for Boys in Plainfield, IN. He alleges staff members beat him, and older boys sexually assaulted him during his time there. Manson depicted the abuse in his book:
I know the school is still in operation, but I hope all the warped, sadistic bastards I met there are now dead.”
https://www.ranker.com/list/charles-manson-childhood/cristina-sanza
So it was injust to punish Charles Manson for murder because Manson was as much a victim as Allison Mack.
Victimhood culture is rampant. Good to know there are still people calling for personal responsibility.
Mack, in my opinion, had no excuses. She was wealthy and had the opportunity to do pretty much whatever she wanted with the rest of her life; certainly she had more options than most people, coming off a 10 year run on a successful network TV show. She made appallingly bad choices, and now she has to pay the price. It’s sad, for sure, that she ruined her life. But she did it to herself.
“Victimhood culture is rampant. Good to know there are still people calling for personal responsibility.”
Thank you.
I know that you tried to warn Allison on her personal blog of the danger she faced and she ignored you.
Years ago I tried to warn Catholics about the danger their church faced from the looming pedophilia scandals.
(I live in a very Catholic area and have some Catholic relatives.)
I won few friends by being blunt.
Now I hear former Catholics all the time admitting that the pedophilia scandals drove them out of the church.
“Mack, in my opinion, had no excuses. She was wealthy and had the opportunity to do pretty much whatever she wanted with the rest of her life; ”
So it’s jealousy that makes you so agressive against her!?
It was the choice of each of the victims too…
Nicole could have done Something else,
Jaye could have done Something else
Sylvie could have done Something else
So Cami, Dani and many others.
Yet Allison is the big bad monster because she could have done…Something else.
Idiot!
A reminder, if you say “true, they could ” then you question their victims status and if there are no victims anymore, I’ll ask you 1 thing
Why are you even raging against Allison?
Just get a life!
Like it or not, either Allison is a victim like everyone or no one is a victim and this whole rage against her is absurd…
No grey level here.
Allison did what the victim did, Allison was under the same conditions and was punished like them.
Coercion existed for all of them (including Allison) and Allison, in her writings, sounded awfully like the other victims.
It’s funny because you keep saying that Allison either was an idiot or wanted to do things but you never apply this to the other victims.
Yet, it’s the same …
But, of course, it only works IF YOU IGNORE THE COLLATERAL AND COERCION EXERCISED BY RANIERE…
Not to make excuses for Manson, but to be f*cked up from childhood is much more of a burden than being fooled as an adult. Manson was probably legitimately insane. Mack, not so much.
get a life with your stupid comparison…
It’s not Worth time to answer one of your stupid analyze, you give a great image of yourself and only fool like Anonymaker, Actaeon and an handfull of idiot actually give you credit.
” only fool like Anonymaker, Actaeon and an handfull of idiot actually give you credit.”
And are the FBI agents who investigated Allison Mack and came up with enough solid information to indict her sorry ass for sex trafficking also fools?
[…] Part 2: Allison Mack Through the Looking Glass: Trial Evidence Shows Allison Mack Was Starved and Co… […]
Thanks for this continuing series.
Here we have another example, of a type of “loaded language,” as in the case of Raniere’s teachings about sex with children discussed the other day, in which he chooses examples biased towards and suggesting a particular point of view. Even Vicente picked up on this:
“one was there was so many of the examples in the [Nxivm] education about not giving into comfort and choosing principal [[sic]] instead. … in other words, don’t go for the ice cream … focus on your calories. … I thought to myself, ‘why is there this obsession with weight and calories? What is going on? Is there no other metaphor that can be used? Why it was always the cake or the pizza? … – why is that the grand example of… weakness….’ then I began to see a … lot of the women … becoming rail thin.”
Raniere, as a typical hypocritical guru, was of course not personally obsessed with weight and calories – this was for his female followers, while the “renunciate” sat on the couch and ate pizza, waiting for one of them to give him a blow job.
It’s also interesting to see that even Vicente, who owned or co-owned the two major centers on the West Coast and was a board member, was not aware of Raniere’s multiple relationships with women until relatively late. That shows just how compartmentalized information in NXIVM was.
Not to beat a dead horse about the Way but….the Way also had a “suggested” diet which was more grain based.
They even published a book 9f recipes that, per the Wsy, was in line wirh their interpretation of Biblical teaching in the book of Genesis.
Sadly I do not recall at this time the wording yet I do recall it’s based on God’s admonition to Adam and Eve what was fit to eat.
They all do the same things, folks. Control your food, divest you of your wealth, invade your bedroom, load the language, have a cult of personality at its core, etc.
Different names, same schtick.
Buye4 beware one might say.
“It’s also interesting to see that even Vicente, who owned or co-owned the two major centers on the West Coast and was a board member, was not aware of Raniere’s multiple relationships with women until relatively late. That shows just how compartmentalized information in NXIVM was.”
AnonyMaker:
Please read Catherine Oxenberg’s book “Captive”.
Oxenberg was not a NXIVM insider but she lived for a time in NXIVM Village in Clifton Park.
And Oxenberg describes a scene where Raniere enters a late night volleyball game and all of the women line up to French Kiss the Vanguard.
Oxenberg, an outsider, knew the score.
Oxenberg, an outsider, knew Raniere was intimate with these women.
Oxenberg, an outsider, knew that Mack was the Number One woman. The Queen of the Ball.
And Oxenberg knows that Allison Mack was Raniere’s Chief Handmaiden.
Oxenberg knows that Allison Mack is a Perpetrator.
Oxenberg was in New York a lot more than Vicente. What is your point?
“they were like almost like giddy call girls and he was kind of the connect with each of them in different ways. But there was a lot of… physical contact and whispering.”
I might note here that Ester Carlson Chiappone chose to not starve herself to the point of emaciation.
Neither did Nancy Salzman.
Neither did Karen U.
So these women chose to obey Raniere in return for physical intimacy.
Well Federal Prison will make sure that Allison gets plenty of hearty food and she will get physical intimacy from her fellow female prisoners.
Federal prison is just what the doctors order for emaciated criminals.
And Allison, make sure you scarf down a cheeseburger every once in a while.
And Pizza garnished with garlic.
I love your analyses, Frank. True investigative reporting. You put a face on the victims and expose KR for the malicious, tricky little scumbag he is.
Does anyone have their mugshots??
Federal mugshots are not generally released. But I have suspected that the photo of Keith Raniere used at trial by the prosecution might be his mugshot.
“Kristin Kreuk brought Allison Mack into Nxivm then wisely got out. ”
Frank, you said that two proctors told you that Kreuk did not get out of NXIVM and was still with them into 2016, three years after the date Kreuk publicly lied about.
You said she was still doing EM’s and getting other “benefits” from NXIVM up to 2016.
Can you elaborate on who was conducting these EM’s and what these other “benefits” were.
By all the information out so far, Kreuk did not leave the NXIVM cult, certainly not in 2013 and most likely would still of been a supporter of it had the branding fiasco never happened.
It’s Frank report…Don’t expect to see the Truth here.
It’s twisted, often contradicted by their own words …
When you see them publish people like Shadow, you have to Wonder “should i Believe what they say?)
EM were usually conducted by Salzmans (Nancy and her daughter) and a few selected people…
It was some kind of “hypnotic” technique to “help” people to outcome their problem but often it was used to obtain collateral material on people…
They were recorded and records kept for Raniere (by Salzman , if i recall properly)
as for benefits, it’s a BS story (probably) as the only benefit one can receive in this cult is money and only a few were making money out of it…
Allison and Kristin didn’t got anything as a benefit except a hole in their wallet…None ever had any kind of power or advantages.
This transcript shows that…Allison was just at the same level as any of the victims.
Kristin was likely not a member after 2013…nobody has been able to demonstrate that she was (a picture with her ex and Allison at an unknow date is hardly a proof)
And to make it clear, I hate Kristin so i don’t defend her but i stick to the facts…
While it’s undisputable that she dragged Allison in the cult, i doubt she was linked to any of the conspiracy theories we read around here.
—While it’s indisputable that she dragged Allison in the cult, I doubt she was linked to any of the conspiracy theories we read around here.
Then why do you hate her?
What has she done to deserve your hate?
Do you know something we don’t?
Do you know her personally?
Help us understand—
First because i do what i want and i don’t have to explain myself if i want to hate her…it’s my personnal problem.
Second, you quoted it yourself and it would already be enough to hate her…because SHE DRAGGED ALLISON IN THE CULT….
I’m a bit tired to have to justify my opinions while other aren’t justifying what they call facts…
No one “DRAGGED” anyone into the cult.
Allison made her own stupid decisions while in it. Other people did not. Kreuk did not. So that puts a lot of the blame on Allison herself.
“No one “DRAGGED” anyone into the cult.”
You are an idiot who understands nothing about cult…Nothing to add to your reflection…
About starvation impact…just so people understand the impact of what Raniere was putting them throu and why:
Search for Minnesota starvation experiment (it’s an official experiment done in 1944 for about half a year on a big amount of people)…
The result are astonishing ,scary and explain why they (the girl starved) were Following his order without thinking…
I could also talk about an experiment on sleep deprivation that Washington state university did for the US DoD but the result are about the same as starvation…
“Kristin was likely not a member after 2013”
If she was still associating with the cult, doing cult things, she was a member. Seeing as she was still doing EMs with NXIVM in 2016, she was still with them. If a member of ISIS stops beheading captives but is happy to show up for prayers with an ISIS cleric, then the individual is still with ISIS.
——-
“nobody has been able to demonstrate that she was (a picture with her ex and Allison at an unknown date is hardly a proof)”
If you mean the picture of them in a car, from June 2012 in New York, then yes she was still an active member then.
Were you in NXIVM? Why do you dislike Kreuk?
—-If you mean the picture of (Kreuk, Hildreth and Mack) in a car, from June 2012 in New York, then yes she was still an active member then.
Because Kreuk was seen with her boyfriend and long-time girlfriend is somehow proof she was in the cult? Staying friends with your friends is wrong in your opinion?
The picture you have jerked off to many times is from no later than June 2012, a year before your dream spank claimed she “left”.
So yes, it’s proof you crazy bastard.
“If she was still associating with the cult, doing cult things, she was a member. Seeing as she was still doing EMs with NXIVM in 2016, she was still with them. ”
Excuse me but this info is coming from? Because , if she was doing EM , it was as a patient as she was never having the “credential” to do them on others…
Also i advice you not to Believe everything you read around here…there is 10% of Truth for 90% of BS (including in Frank’s article…)
“If you mean the picture of them in a car, from June 2012 in New York, then yes she was still an active member then. ”
Explain? there is no real date, no way to be sure it was taken in 2012 and technically it would still be a proof as it was in 2012 and she supposetly left in 2013…
“Were you in NXIVM?”
And you?…
“Why do you dislike Kreuk?”
Not your problem and why do you care?
EMs as “benefits” is sarcastic, I assume.
Kreuk still taking EMs in 2016 (if she was) shows that if she was physically out of Nx, her spirit was still held by the years of mindfucking. And maybe thru the EMs the cult was trying to learn something to bring her back in, or use Kreuk in some other way for the “benefit” of the cult.