Grabaciones de audio originales reales de Emiliano Salinas y Toni Zarattini – en español

This is a lengthy post and is meant more for the Mexican media who might want to study how Emiliano Salinas’ statements about his role in Nxivm compares with what he says in this 2017 secretly-recorded conversation he had with Toni Zarattini.

The recording was made in August 2017 and was a recorded phone call between Emiliano Salinas and Toni Zarattini. They spoke in Spanish

Aquí están las grabaciones de la llamada telefónica de agosto de 2017 entre Emiliano Salinas y Toni Zarattini. Ellos hablaron en español

They were both secretly recording each other. Below the tapes, a Mexican source has kindly made a translation of the conversation into English so that English-speaking readers can learn about what Emiliano knew and didn’t know.






Part 1: Loreta Garza lies about why Vicente and

Edmondson left NXIVM

The call was made in August 2017, at a time when I was the only one publishing about the blackmail and branding of NXIVM women.

My notes are in bold.

The tape begins with basic greetings.

Toni Zaratini [TZ:] How are you?

Emiliano Salinas [ES]: I’m already in the hotel and finished my work and wanted to ask you if you have time to talk or if you have a time limit because I want you to help me see several things with you

TZ: Of course I have time.

The conversation moves toward an attempt at peace with perhaps a bit of veiled threat by Salinas:

ES: Ok, cool. I kept thinking on the plane, maybe it could sound stupid to you, but when in 1963 they avoided the missile crisis because they could sit and talk. It was beneficial for everyone. I think it’s good that we are speaking just like them.

TZ: Me too, Emiliano.

ES: Because, if there is the possibility of resolving things without the need for a confrontation, I am always in favor of that and two, if there is a possibility that we are wrong in our perception, even if it is a small probability, I think it is worth talking before getting into chaos and maybe for nothing, right?

TZ: Yes, Emiliano, I agree.

ES: I mean, right?, I do not know, eh, I do not know exactly where to start, but I think I am willing to do it? I would like to know your perspective of what happened and I’ll tell you mine, from my side, eh, what has happened, eh, no doubt your perspective, eh, will help me to understand your actions and maybe mine could also help you enrich yours and maybe we can achieve a more objective appreciation of what is happening, right?

TZ: Correct, very correct. If you want, I’ll tell you my process. For me, it all started when we went to the Coach Summit [a retreat where NXIVM coaches meet to learn NXIVM leader, Keith Raniere’s latest ideas for teaching and recruiting members], and I learned the news that Mark [Vicente] and Sara Edmondson left [NXIVM].  I was very surprised because the interaction that I had with Mark – because I know the relationship you had with him and with Keith; the relationship that I developed with him. We had seen each other in the conferences in Leon, you remember. My image of Mark was that he was a very committed person [to NXIVM] and with him, I mean, he was one of the best recruiters in the company.  I mean, he was on the Board [of Directors] with you. All this image of Mark and the knowledge, because I saw how, from the moment he first joined [NXIVM] until he got to where he was, right? Well, I went and asked Loretta [Garza, a High Ranking NXIVM leader] because I was not satisfied with what they [other NXIVM officials] said that he was filming movies, which was the explanation they gave when you where there having your babies, your baby.

ES: No, two babies.

TZ: Oh yes correct you had two.

ES: Yes two –  boy and girl.

TZ: Oh, ok.

ES: And it has been good, I’ll tell you.

TZ: I imagine. So, Loretta gave me an explanation. But it was very strange because [Loretta said the reason Mark left NXIVM was because] Mark got angry because [his wife] Bonnie [Piesse]had a problem at the Source [Raniere’s and Allison Mack’s acting course] with those who were there and because of that, Mark decided to leave because of his process that he could not solve certain things. OK? And then I also find out about Sarah Edmondson, who left [NXIVM], and why did she leave? [NXIVM members told Toni] Because she was having a tantrum because it seems that she wanted Mark’s position [in NXIVM]. But it was not very clear and understandable for me, Emiliano, honestly. And so we continued in Coach Summit. I did not continue to inquire or anything.

[The truth is that Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson quit because Raniere started a ‘sorority’ among women where they were branded and blackmailed. Sarah was actually branded. The stories Loretta Garza – who reportedly is also branded – told Toni were typical NXIVM coverup lies.]   


Part 2  Zaratini confronts Jimena Garza; Omar Boone admits DOS is tru

TZ: [As Toni left Coaches Summit] It was just weird for me and at the end, at the airport, Marial told me that Paloma, she told me Marce came to tell me that she is a little bit upset, a little scared because Paloma is inviting her to a thing where she has to give a secret to enter [collateral].

I asked her it is from ESP? She said ‘no, it’s something else,’ I said ‘what? When did it happen?’ She said ‘yesterday during the Summit.’ I said ‘No, it’s super weird’ and I said, ‘She should not be doing that because then I’m a salesperson, because like she’s inviting people to another program [not NXIVM].

ES: Yes, we don t allow that.

TZ: Well, no, it’s not cool. Exactly. We’ve never allowed it right? Then I called Jimena [Garza] immediately. Jimena asked me who had told me, and what happened. I told her and she said, ‘I’ll call you in 3 minutes.’ In 3 minutes, she called me and told me, ‘I want you to know that Paloma is fine. That Marcela is fine, that everything is fine, there is no problem. I need you to say nothing to anyone, neither you, nor Marial. Do not ask anything anymore. Do not inquire and do not say anything.’ I asked Jimena, “What are you talking about?’ She said, ‘like I am telling you. I mean with what happened with Paloma, do not ask anymore. Trust me. ‘

ES: Ok

TZ: Well, if I stayed like that – a bit off the air – it was because, in all the years I’ve been there, Emiliano, no one ever silenced me, nobody. They never told me not to say anything, and as I also felt that I was blocked from the ‘ask and do not ask’ situation. Then we go back to Irapuato and two days later, Farouk [Rojas] calls me and asks me, ‘How are you, man? “ [I said] ‘fine,’ . [Farouk asks] ‘How is Marial?’ [I said] ‘Fine,’ and [Farouk asks] ‘How are you with the problem?’[I said] ‘Which problem?’ [Farouk said] ‘With what’s happening in Vancouver?’ [I said] ‘What’s happening in Vancouver? [Farouk] There was a runaway, many coaches left [NXIVM] and many proctors [higher rank coaches][I said] Why? [Farouk] ‘I do not know’ [I said] ‘Well, who knows, there is very little and bad information. There is information from a group of women, but then nothing.’ [Farouk said] Well, I do not know.’

ES: Oh no, it’s strange.

TZ: And in that moment, Emiliano, I honestly said, ‘What’s happening?’ The first thing that came to my mind was to call Sarah Edmondson. I called her because one, she was my friend; two, because she was Green [Green is a high rank in NXIVM]; and three, because she was a super successful salesperson.  I had information from Jimena [Garza] that she was super good selling, and that she earned between 20 and 30 thousand US dollars per month, and so then why does she leave like this dude [Mark Vicente] did. I thought, ‘OK, Mark left, but Mark [according to NXIVM officials] left to make movies. What happened?’ So I called Sarah and Sarah told me about her experience [of being blackmailed and branded], then, at the time she told me about her DOS group experience. I thought, ‘Oh man, it’s the same as Paloma’. So I listened to Sarah and the truth was like man, ‘Why didn’t Jimena tell me?, like WTF is with this man!’ Then I called Jimena to asked her what happened with Paloma? What happened with what she told me? [I said] ‘Well I want you to tell me.” [Jimena said] ‘I cannot tell you. Why are you asking me the question? I had already told you that you should not ask me this. Nothing is happening.’ And I was like, ‘Jimena sorry!’ Besides I went to the internet, Emiliano, to read the Frank Report and all about this topic, right? All I wanted was to get accurate information. So I called Jimena and we started to discuss and discuss and it began to get hot because I was already pissed off because, [I said] ‘Why don’t you want to tell me?’  [Jimena said] ‘You have an issue. You have an issue with wanting to know. You have an issue with understanding.” and I said, ‘I give a damn about the issues, now you tell me what is happening!’

(Emiliano laughs)

TZ Really man, I was very pissed off.

ES: No, I understand you. I understand, that’s why I’m laughing.

TZ: And then she said, ‘You know that you and I cannot talk. I’m going to pass you over to Omar [Boone, her husband]. Well, I told her, ‘Whoever the fuck you want.’, So then she put Omar on the phone and you know how Omar is. He is really nice, in my experience, he’s a very nice dude. I said, ‘Look, Omar, I am really angry and you too man, like a man, tell the truth, I’m not stupid. Dude talk to me man to man,’ and he accepted, Emiliano, he accepted. He said, ‘Yes, this group of women exist. The truth is I think they did not handle it well, blah, blah’. So at the end, dude, he admitted that the group of [blackmailed and branded] women exists, and it was created to create character, etc. So at that point, Emiliano, to me, it seemed a very bad idea. First, because the practices are not cool to me personally. I do not agree with the idea of collateral and those pornographic things [pictures and videos the slaves had to take of themselves and give to their masters]. I think it’s like giving yourself a nail for your foot, and you’re doing a kind of personal coercion.  I did not think it was cool and then, all of it, if we see this piece by piece, we can find it as there is nothing bad. I’m giving you my opinion, Emiliano. There’s nothing wrong with it, what’s bad for you to get a tattoo? Why is it bad for you to put collateral in a bank? Why is it bad to have a consequence after something? And it’s fine, dude, but the context of it [is bad].  You can’t tell. You make vows of silence, vows of obedience. You have to wake up and greet the master, before going to bed, greet the master, and ask permission to eat certain things, all this as a theme, all this put together in context. I’m sorry, but It does not sound like something that creates value or is positive for people who are there. There is no way I can see it in a good way, Emiliano.


Part 3: Zarattini finds out about DOS; and Keith’s sleeping with students

When Toni Zarattini [above] learned about DOS and its deceptive methods of getting “collateral,” he was outraged. He allegedly tried to warn women in Monterrey. This damaging and embarrassing material is held to ensure the obedience and silence of DOS women. Collateral is collected through a series of deceptive inducements, initially in exchange for higher level teachings. It gradually morphs into blackmail. For Mr. Zarattini’s pains at bringing out this dangerous truth, Keith ordered Emiliano Salinas and Alex Betancourt to fabricate a story about him trying to extort ESP and make an example of what happens to people who speak up against Mr. Raniere.

Toni Zarattini [TZ] Then, I asked Omar [Boone, head of Monterrey] ‘I want you to tell me if it’s true, that Keith has sex with his students.’ Not because I’m shocked that someone can have a lot of sex, man, not because of this, that for me is no problem, but for me, there is a problem because I have an idea of Keith and I have kept that idea and I have kept what everyone has told me about him [Raniere] and even he introduced himself to me as someone who has all these values of compassion and humanity and it is like the clear example we have, and I’m sorry, but I honestly cannot see, or conceive how a person with the authority [of the teacher] that he represents in an organization of these things that you and I know may look good, and that student can date the guru [Raniere]. 

I mean, shut up. I cannot conceive that as something good and then if it is something that has been kept secret, then neither. Because they could have said from the beginning, ‘Look Keith is a super-normal human being who does all this kind of things [having sex with students] and thinks that these are good ideas, but, dude, we think he is an integrated human being, he is a unified person that would never attempt anything that would not help the other person.’ So, sorry, I’m going to stay in my process, because I’m telling you about my process.

Then at that point, Omar told me, “No, Toni, check it out. Check the consistency, check out the history that you have of him [Raniere]. This does not happen. I could put my hands in the fire pit for him.”

‘Ok, man, it’s good’. I said, [Still] it’s so stupid. The woman thing [DOS] because if it’s [already] hard to enroll [now]. The day this comes out to the light, dude, that this women’s group does this type of practice here, we will see who we will be able to enroll; when it comes to light that there is a group of women-’ and he [Omar] told me it is not a group of ESP, it’s a [separate] group of women.

[I told him] ‘I don’t give a damn. If Allison Mack is the one in the head and then you have to enlist 6 women and each woman has to enlist 6 slaves; they call them slaves, they brand themselves. What the fuck by holy shit, dude.’ At that point then, Jimena and Omar said, ‘These are of your fears. These are your issues; you have to work all this.’

Dude, [I told Omar and Jimena] Marial already wants to leave [NXIVM]. She wants to take my children out of Rainbow [Cultural Garden].’ I was between scared and sad and fuck, now, what I’m going to do? I really believed in this [NXIVM], or I believe in this. I want to believe in this.

A conflict started in me and I said [to Omar and Jimena], ‘Good, maybe I can calm down and maybe I can swallow the concept of a group of [slave] women, but Marial won’t, dude. Then what shall I do with Marial?” and they said, ‘Well these are your issues work with them.’

So there you go out to buy and pay for EMs [Exploration of Meaning, a costly NXIVM therapy] with Lauren [Salzman], with Carmen and so on for 3 more weeks and, at the same time, my sister-in-law was in the [Vanguard, unaccredited] University, with [everyone having] questions every day like ‘Do you know who left,’ and ‘There is a rumor that there is a group of women who were branded’ and ‘Keith this, and that,’ and people [attending the Vanguard University] talking about it all day long and there I was trying to put out the fire with my sister-in-law. I kept telling her not to worry. Nothing is happening. Those are pure rumors, and so, dude, I knew I had already spoken with Sarah Edmondson, knowing that some of these things were true and that Omar already had confirmed this to me, and, on the other hand, people kept saying, ‘Do not say anything. Don’t speak anything. Don’t mention the subject.’

This ‘Don’t say’ and ‘Do not speak’ began to make a lot of noise in my head – to the point that one day, not long ago, my sister-in-law tells me, ‘Guess what? Vasco [NXIVM coach] has already left, because of the things that you are telling me are not true. He inquired, did an investigation.’

So I told her, ‘Let’s see. I want to talk with Vasco.’

I spoke to him and he confirmed what my sister-in-law said to me: that he spoke with many people and I told him, ‘Hey, I want to talk to people. I want to know from their own mouth. I want to begin to understand what this is about.’ I said all this to him and then I asked him if they are willing to talk to me. He made a list of people who were willing to talk to me and they started telling me their story about how some were in the group of [DOS] women and others had [sexual] relationships [with Raniere] for years with him and one of them just left. I met her in Jness and she just left because she could not deal with that [harem] situation and well, at that moment, well, dude, what do I have left, Emiliano?  I cannot continue in this, man.

Then, at the same time, Roberto Cárdenas [a NXIVM coach from Leon] calls me and says, ‘Hey Tony, why did you cancel the Intro [NXIVM course] today and I told him that my dad got sick, and he said, ‘No, I don’t think your dad got sick. I think you have something else, dude, and I need you to tell me because I’m restless and because there are many doubts. Students are asking me a lot of things. I do not know what to say. Nobody says anything to me. I asked Adriana. Nobody says anything. I asked [redacted] Nobody says anything. I asked David. Nobody says anything’.

I told him to ‘Come here, man sit down’ [and meet], and I told Roberto Cárdenas, ‘I just found out about this. It makes me fucking mad dude. They have already shut my mouth a lot.’  I started like that so I started talking like that.

He told me, ‘No fucking way. Marce is also very angry, can you talk to her too?’ And I said, ‘Of course I can. Why not? I am seeing, I am realizing that this [DOS] exists and has too much inconsistency for me, and it’s outside of ESP and has nothing to do with what I have seen in these past 12 years, but, man, shit with this, this has too much inconsistency. The people are scared. They are hurt. I do not think they invented {the stories about DOS] They are not inventing it, because some live in one part of the United States and others live on the other side. Some have just left, man. It can’t be, dude. It cannot be lots of people agree to tell lies and are far apart in age differences and time differences.’

You know what I said, ‘I think I’m going to get out of this, and everyone can search for their information and make their decision man.’

Part 4: Zarattini gets kicked out of NXIVM

Toni Zarattini [TZ] [has been explaining to Emiliano how he discovered the branding and blackmail scheme of DOS and that Keith was sleeping with his students. Toni continued telling Salinas on the phone.]

[TZ] I thought of two people I wanted to talk with because I wanted them to know what I learned, what I investigated. This was Gerardo Ayala, dude, because he is my friend and brother; because, when I was married to my ex-wife, and she was making me a puss, he and [his wife] Ana [Risoul] came to me and told me things; they were probably going to get into trouble because I was in a relationship with my wife, but they told me and it was definitely worth it, dude, because they could not do much, but they tried, man, and, after some time, I realized it had been their good intentions. So, I went to Gerardo Ayala and said, ‘Dude, this is happening. Open your eyes. Check the information; search for information. I do not know what will happen to Ana, dude, because Ana is very into it and surely there will be a problem, [she might get branded, give collateral, have sex with Keith ] but I think you have to open your eyes because this is not cool dude. It’s not cool, not just because they’re going to hurt you man; it’s just not cool.’

Shit, you know, why I am so pissed off, Emiliano? I dedicated 20 hours a week to this, 20 hours to help students, to work in the [ESP] center, to teach Ethos, to put out fires, a whole lot of things and then they come out with this shit, the group of [DOS] women and Keith [having sex with a lot of his students]. Keith doing that kind of thing, it pisses you off, man! It’s like a big disappointment and then it coincides with Jimena’s ‘Shut up and do not ask anymore, do not make a fuss about it, it’s your issues’ and all this, man, then, after talking with Gerardo Ayala, he  told me ‘Stop talking about this to people.’ I said, ‘OK, dude, it’s okay. I’m not going to talk to people anymore.’ I think the next day, this was Friday, the next day suddenly in the morning – 1, 2, 3 – I got kicked out of almost all the chat [rooms]—  Are you there?

ES: Yes.

TZ: They took me out of all the chats. They took me out of staff [removed him from] Ethos, of all the committees, up to the telegram that I do not use the telegram. I do not use that thing. I only use WhatsApp. From all sides, they took me out, and then Omar Boone writes to me, ‘Toni, we do not know which side you are on, man. That’s why we took you out of the chats.’

Fuck, and after that Marial came back from a trip and at the airport, I told her, ‘Did you see they took me out of the chats.?’ She said. ‘Well, me too.’  I said, ‘what?’ I asked her, “Did someone call you or something?” She said nothing.

Dude, you have to understand something, Emiliano, you surely pay for it and surely you will pay much more now that you have your kids; you are going to pay more but I paid $100,000 pesos a month [$5075 US] for [his children to attend] Rainbow [Cultural Garden]. 100,000 pesos a month, dude. Few people do that. Few people believe in a system like this. Carola [Garza, the head of Rainbow Cultural Garden in Monterrey] did not even have the decency to talk to Marial, to ask anything, or to say anything [before kicking their children out]. The Rainbow group, the Rainbow moms, I mean, she didn’t even ask her. Nobody even asked me if we were thinking of getting out or leaving [NXIVM][By them asking] ‘What are you doing? [They said] nothing, dude, you are an outsider dude, like a criminal.

Well, yes, dude, three hours later, I wrote a goodbye message and [wrote] ‘I’m leaving.’ I do not remember what I put in the message and obviously after that 40 or 50 people from inside the organization called me and asked me, ‘Why did you leave? What is happening? Why did they kick you out of the chats? Why do you want to leave?’ Well, what do you want me to tell them Emiliano? Not to tell them anything, dude? What should I do there?

Emiliano Salinas [ES]: No, I understand you. I obviously hear you from your perspective and of course I understand that I do not think you’re crazy Guajajara, I do not think that one day you went crazy, so I’m interested to know how that process was for you because surely from your perspective and from what you have lived and the assumptions that you have, of course, you are right, and surely I would have done the same from your place.

TZ: Yes, OK, well yes and you know what, Emiliano? I understand that my actions have caused economic damage [to NXIVM] and caused other people to make the decision to leave. I understand this, but after I [left, DOS slave], Paloma left, and you spoke to Paloma – and are you there?–

ES: Yes, Yes

TZ: I talked with Paloma and well, because Paloma has her version, right? But also, it’s not fair that they lied to her. She is sure that Jimena lied to her about certain things and well, dude, now she’s branded, and she will be branded for life, dude.  And, so, there is nothing left, dude, it’s like this, it’s gross. You don’t even want to say, ‘Hey, yes, I left because I decided this did not  go with my values.’ Damn, the truth, it hurts a lot. It has hurt a lot and I understand this has caused damage to you and I would like to stop the problem, that’s the truth.

Part 5: Salinas claims Vicente and Edmondson are part of a plot to extort money from NXIVM

Zarattini has just explained to Salinas why he was disturbed about Raniere and DOS and how he was kicked out of NXIVM.

Salinas seems to be concerned about what Toni told Alejandro Junco – the powerful newspaper publisher whose daughter Rosa Laura is in the cult.

ES: Well I think the same. Well, and about [Toni talking to] Alejandro [Junco], how did that happen? Like the last chapter in this telenovela and I do not know how it happened.

TZ: Alejandro is the same dude, is part of, for me, it is like Laurel, [he] is my friend.  Luis is my friend. For me, what was happening was not OK. It was not OK, and I went to look for him because I know he has never agreed [with his daughter being in NXIVM] and for me, [DOS, Keith sleeping with students] it has been a revelation that this is not cool so [I went to Junco to discuss] what can we do so this does not happen anymore? That is the truth, Emiliano, and well, I think this was a mistake. I think it is a mistake because, for example, yesterday, you talked to me, I started to think, OK, you called me, or you at least started talking, and you showed me what you are like. I said ‘Yes, I did not think about you, or that I’m going to hurt Emiliano.’ No man, I started thinking and looking at it more as with like with a bad intent, where, if they ask me, I can’t say what I think, dude.

ES: Yes, I understand.

TZ: So —

ES: I feel that way too. I am also one of the people who cannot say something I do not believe in or say something I do not believe in, so I don’t think it’s strange, right?

TZ: Right.

ES: Maybe I do not see things exactly as you see them, but if I understand what you’re saying to me and how you told me yesterday, maybe we do not agree with the whole situation, but I also felt you were honest when you said your intention was not to hurt. The truth, it does not go there.

TZ: Right, correct.

ES: And from my side, it’s the same, Ok? Do you want me to tell you a little about my side? Or is there something more?

TZ: Of course

ES: So look, you told me in chronological order, and I’ll tell you as it comes out, but the end [game] for me is we [NXIVM] have an open, preliminary investigation against a group of people who have been extorting us for a long time, trying to extort money, and when I say extort, I mean we have letters addressed to me – not exclusively me, but I’m included, where basically it says ‘If you do not give me X amount of money, I will destroy your company. I will destroy your reputation and I will destroy your relationships.’

[Ed. note: I would like to see those letters because I suspect Emiliano is lying and nobody wrote a letter saying give me money or I will destroy your company.]

TZ: That is extortion of course.

ES: That’s clear and plain extortion, right? And then, on the other hand, these people do not know what has happened. For several years anyone who fights with the organization [NXIVM], I do not know if it is designed or coincidence, but [they] always end up working with those who have left before. It makes sense to me. I imagine that at the time when you were on one side in a fight, right? And then you fight with the side you were [once on]. I don’t think it’s crazy to go to the other side, right? It is even a way to seek support, I think. The thing is that several important people left the organization. It has nothing to do with leaving the organization, it has to do with fighting with us.

TZ: Okay

ES: Many people have left the organization and we are still good friends and nothing else happens; they are no longer in the organization, the same, hey, you have left the organization, you are like those who say I am a clear example of those who have stopped smoking. I have stopped smoking a few times.

TZ: Yes

ES: You have also left the organization. It has happened many times and it has never been a problem; that is not a problem. [But] These people have declared war against us and they have been extorting us.

TZ: Okay

ES: Then suddenly we find a person [Toni Zarattini] – and this has never happened in Mexico before; it has almost [always] been in the United States – and there have been actions in Mexico – and we suddenly realize that that person is you, right? From our perspective is [now]carrying out all the threats that this group [of extortionists] has made against us for years [for money], to destroy our company too, to destroy our reputation and destroy our relationships. And that person [in Mexico, Zarattini] who is doing those actions that are carrying out the threats that we have been subjected to for years is in contact with these people. At least, that’s what they have made us believe, right?

TZ: But wait, Emiliano, what people specifically?

ES: Well, Mark [Vicente] and Sarah [Edmondson].

TZ: Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson?

ES: Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson are in direct contact with the extortionists. And also doing the same actions that are destroying the company, our reputation, and our relationships. And you have been in contact with them.

Part 6: Salinas claims Bouchey, Dones, Natalie, Vicente, Edmondson, Parlato and others sought to extort $10 million from NXIVM

Emiliano Claims the alleged extortionists are asking for $10 million

Salinas has claimed that NXIVM and he himself are being extorted. He has named only Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson as part of the sinister plot. Salinas told Toni Zarattini that he thought Toni was in on the extortion plot and that is why he took certain legal action against Toni.

Emiliano Salinas [ES:] No, I understand. I am telling you what I heard [about Toni being in on the extortion plot] before speaking with you. The pieces of the puzzle that I have is, here is a group of people who are extorting us and have threatened us with very specific things. Then, they have enlisted another group of people to carry out these threats. Of course, curiously, they put out their hands [for money]. Because we know that those who are carrying out the threats are actively destroying our reputation and it’s Frank Parlato.

TZ: Yes, the one from Frank Report?

ES: Yes, the one from Frank Report, then directly he is destroying, but Frank Report is receiving information from Mark [Vicente] and from Sara [Edmondson] and from Barbara Bouchey [she left NXIVM in 2009] and from other people. Then, they hide their hand and we have armed the chain from which other people are carrying out their threats.

TZ: Ok, ok.

ES: And then you [Toni] start doing the same actions [in Mexico] that they are doing in the United States but in Mexico. Do you know what the picture looks like on my side? Now you are the executioner in Mexico. That is part of the reason why I called you yesterday and part of the reason why I wanted to explain my perspective. I do not want you to become part of the extortion without knowing it.

TZ: Aha.

ES: Because I can have the perspective that it is, if you take this to a judge, right? Well, in one of those [criminal complaints], the judge says it’s A plus B plus C plus D; so, what is going on here? And because I intuited, I do not know, sometimes it’s a vibe, sometimes it’s what I sensed – that you did not have all the information. So I said, ‘No, I do not want to put Toni in a problem [by making a criminal complaint against him]. That he gets into a problem without knowing it and without wanting it. He does not really have the full perspective. It’s all the information about what’s happening [the claimed extortion] and that he [Toni]is unknowingly instrumental in an extortion. An extortion is being investigated and not only in Mexico but also in several countries, right? [Ed. note: I have serious doubts about this claim] So I know that you are not extorting anyone and right now what you are telling me I understand perfectly. I even understand the intention with which you have done all these things [warning people about NXIVM], but even with that good intention, if you end up being instrumental in an extortion then it’s good that we can stop this immediately and it’s good that we can redirect it, because you’re not an extortionist are you?  (Emiliano laughs). And I know it.

TZ: Well, of course not.

ES: So, if you understand what comes to me from what we started to see, then that’s why all the antennas stick up. I’ll tell you an additional thing, and I’ll tell you because we’re talking transparently. Someone told us that you spoke directly with Barbara Bouchey or that you had been in a conversation where Barbara Bouchey was on a conference call.

TZ: That I had been in a conference call with her?

ES: Yes, that some people spoke to you, several people, and mentioned your name and that of Barbara Bouchey in the same conversation. That’s what came to us.

TZ: Ok, that is false.

ES: Ok then for us, [we heard] you were not only in communication with Mark and with Sara; we got to think that you were also in direct communication with Barbara Bouchey. That already speaks of a [extortionist] group, right? Well, that group exists, and for you to belong to that group…

TZ: I saw it when I went to [see] your lawyer, [Toni went to visit Salinas’s lawyer] about this shit and there is the name of Susan Dones and he mentioned the name of Toni Natalie.  I know Susan Dones and I know Barbara Bouchey. I know her because they were in the [NXIVM] organization.  Toni Natalie, I have only heard she was Keith’s girlfriend and they [the NXIVM lawyers] started to mention to me people whom I really do not know who they are, dude.

ES: No, surely you do not know everyone. No, because I’m going to tell you this is much bigger and it’s good that they gave you all that information. Because it has nothing to do with you. I want to get you out of this[you are] in the middle of this knot because it is a terrible knot that we have here. We have been trying to solve it for several years, against people who are extorting us for millions of dollars

TZ: Yes, [NXIVM/Emiliano’s lawyer] he told me they are asking for 10 million dollars.

ES: Sorry?

TZ: They are asking for 10 million dollars

ES: They are [asking for] several million dollars. Why should I give you the [exact] amount?

TZ: I’m telling you what your lawyer told me.

ES: Well, so he told you, then, and suddenly you stop inadvertently. Right now, I’m listening to you and you know what was going on in my head? ‘Shoot, dude, with the best intentions, you stood in the line of fire.’

TZ: Yes crossfire.

ES: And I’m going to tell you one thing too. I think it’s very crappy on their [the NXIVM enemies] part because I think none of them mentioned anything to you that if you did certain things, it might even get perceived that you were helping extortion.

TZ: Nobody has said absolutely nothing of that. The flag of Vasco [former NXIVM member], of Sarah, of Nippy [Anthony Ames, Sarah’s husband], I tell you the flag of outside of this is, ‘Here we are here to help you, dude. What do you need?’ and ‘This is what happened to me. This is what I saw. This is what I lived’ and that’s it, that is the flag I perceived.

ES: Yes, but that’s half of the story because I can tell you this is what I experienced, right? Suppose I tell you that such a person cheated on me, right? You say ’shit what the fuck!’ But what if I tell you such a person cheated on me and now I’m thinking how to kill him.

TZ: It’s different.

ES: It’s very different, right? I do not know if you would still like to walk with me if I told you the whole story. Then, they are telling you what happened to them, but they are not telling you what they are doing [extorting]. And by not giving you the whole story, well they put you in a situation of much disadvantage to make decisions.

TZ: I agree.

ES: So, well, it does not seem cool to me. This is where we are. Look I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you how I found out, because I found out about all this, shoot, practically while my children were being born.

TZ: Ah, at [the time of] the Coach Summit.

ES: Well, I did not go to Coach Summit because my children were being born and I learned all these things second-hand. Anyway, what did I conclude, I am interested to know what conclusion you get from everything you have lived in these last three months. Let’s suppose you had not talked to me. What conclusion did you get from everything that all the people with whom you spoke from what they told you? What is your conclusion of the 12 years that you were in ESP and everything that you lived and everything that is happening as to how you see it today after all this?

TZ: Everything to me, or everything I have explained to my parents, Emiliano, because they asked me, ‘Why, after so many years that we have been against this?’. Since I entered [NXIVM], they [Toni’s parents] have never liked it.

ES: I know. I was at your ranch. I saw your dad.

TZ: How is it possible that for so long I —

ES: Mark and I were at your ranch.

TZ: ‘How is it possible that so much time has passed,’ [his parents wanted to know] and I explained [to them] what it is. Damn, I never saw anything bad, dude, never man. In fact, when I went to the singing classes with Keith, it never crossed my mind that Keith went to bed with any of them and dude, at that point, I say, ‘OK, it’s people with whom you share part of your life and there they are with him [sexually]because they are’. Well it has nothing wrong, dude, nothing is wrong, nothing, but the only thing is the secret part, the only bad thing for me, Emiliano, was this ending, those secrets, and then having spoken with people who have had [sexual] relationships lately with Keith and even a young girl dude. [Ed. Note: This may be a reference to statutory rape]. It’s like, I tell you, what for? Really? But look at the end; it’s all the context, the combination [of things] and the ‘Shut up, don’t say a word,’ and all the group of lies. Dude, is just that, because from before all that, Emiliano, I’m going to tell you, I did not see anything bad, dude.

Part 7 Emiliano explains how he learned about collateral from a woman who made sex tape of herself to stay skinny

Emiliano now begins to explain why collateral is helpful for women who are starving themselves under Keith Raniere.


Emiliano Salinas [ES:] Well, it interests me [that Toni Zarattini did not see anything bad with NXIVM before he found out about the branding and blackmail/collateral], because…   it requires strength to be able to not to contaminate everything [good] from the past, right?

Toni Zarattini [TZ]: Right.

ES: Your perspective of the latest events, not only with ESP but everywhere. You have a relationship with a person and it is a fantastic relationship and suddenly something makes the person ruin the relationship and that contaminates all our internal representation of the relationship

TZ: Right, I’m trying not to do that because it’s horrible to destroy everything good. I do not want to do that. I’d like to stop doing that.

ES: Well, let me give you my perspective and, if it’s OK with you, to see where our perspectives agree and where they may not agree, and see how we can have a more objective perspective on this issue. My perspective in some ways matches yours and in other ways, it does not. I’m going to tell you where this started for me. About three years ago, a friend in ESP, with whom I  shared a lot, enough in the sense that she could see, for example, that I knew she had problems – dysfunctional problems – with her food, right? In other words, I knew her long enough to see that suddenly she was drastically gaining weight suddenly, then losing weight quickly and struggling a lot with that [her weight]. Then suddenly I started to see, and for several months saw, she was stable [remaining super skinny]. It seemed finally she had turned that [weight]issue [of being super thin as Raniere requires] around. Then one day, talking to her, I said, ‘Hey I’m glad to see that you’ve been able to turn around this topic [staying emaciated as Raniere demands] that you’ve struggled with for years.’ We all have issues. You can take [control] and you never see the problem again and other issues, you can get 200 EMs [NXIVM Exploration of Meaning Therapy – cost $100 per session] and the problem is still there, right? It’s our issue. And I knew this was one issue for this woman.

TZ: Ok.

ES: And she told me. ‘The truth is that, yes, there have been several months in which I haven’t broken my word [about not eating too much], in which I have been able to sustain myself in that there is no tantrum that is worth it, no reaction or no anxiety reaction that would make me pounce over the box of cookies as I did before.’

I said, ‘That’s so cool. It gives me great pleasure,’ and she told me, ‘I’m going to tell you what I did, because I think it’s a little radical, but it worked.’

I asked, ‘What did you do?’ She tells me, ‘There came a moment when I hit bottom and said its impossible [to stay emaciated]. There is no way I can hold my word. I cannot believe that with everything I have, with everything I learned [from NXIVM], with what matters to me [staying super skinny]. I mean this is my life and I can’t sustain my word.’  Then she said, ‘What I did was put a consequence [collateral] that would ensure that I was not going to break my word. And I started to think, “What could hurt me the most in my life?” And I came to the conclusion that what would hurt me most in life is to cause shame or disgrace to my family and what I decided to do was film myself.’ She made a video that was a sexual video of her with herself [masturbating]. I did not see it, of course, but what she told me is she filmed herself in a video and then she told me, ‘If this came out publicly, this would be devastating for my family’ and only to think about it, she would never do anything [like eating cookies] that could make that happen or even take the risk of that happening. When she made the video, she gave it to a friend and told her friend, ‘If I go back to breaking my word about this, [over eating] you have my authorization to upload this video to social networks.’ She said, ‘Fuck, I almost died when I did it. I mean I told myself, “No way you just did this,” but I tried everything and nothing worked’. And from that moment she did not break her word again.

TZ: Okay.

ES: That’s something I knew because she told me about it three years ago and-

TZ: Good achievement, dude, is fine –

ES: Good achievement, it’s okay, a bit radical, a bit extreme, but damn I know there are times you can have issues [like wanting to eat normally] and you can’t get over them. I thought it was something good. I thought it was very good. I thought it was fantastic.

Part 8: Text from woman saying she is in child prostitution ring; Ceci Salinas explains it is collateral

Part 8 of the secretly recorded phone conversation in August 2017 between Toni Zarattini and Emiliano Salinas. [My explanatory comments are in bold]

After Emiliano Salinas explained to Toni Zarattini how a NXIVM woman kept to her Raniere-inspired, low-calorie diet by taking a video of herself masturbating – then giving it to someone as ‘collateral,’ with instructions to release the video if she ever gained weight – Emiliano went to on telling Toni about the next thing he found out.

Emiliano Salinas: Three years later we are in Mexico and one of my proctors [An Orange Sash-NXIVM teacher] tells me, ‘Hey, I got a text [from a NXIVM member] that shook me up. I wrote to the person [who texted] and she said: “No, sorry, that text was not for you. Please, I ask you to erase it and forget it”. My proctor told me, “I cannot forget [the text]. She [the proctor] then tells me,  ‘Then look, I brought it to you.’

She showed me the text and the text was a confession by this person, it was a woman, a confession that [she] belonged to a child prostitution network and she was confessing it [in the text]. I said ‘No way,’ this is the last thing we need!  I looked for Alex [Betancourt] and told him, ‘Look we have this text and she was also a person who had taken the program a couple of years ago. I think she had taken Jness’.  I told the proctor go back to this person and tell her that you can’t ignore it, you can’t forget it and she has to explain to you what is happening. Then she [the proctor] did it. Then [the woman who texted she was in a child prostitution ring] told her, ‘Look whatever is on the text is not true, but please, I ask you not to ask me, and forget this topic.’

And I really insisted, right? I said, clearly not: ‘Of course, we will not forget it and I will call the police. Do explain this to me or I will call the police.”

And suddenly Ceci [Salinas, Emiliano’s sister and daughter of former president Carlos Salinas. Ceci is a NXIVM High Rank {Green}] came in. We were in my office and I explained the situation and she told me, “Just let me check that this is not one of the topics of the women’s group, this is it,’ and I was like, ‘What women’s group?’ She says, ‘A group of women that put commitments and support each other to transcend issues that they have not been able to manage to transcend and they put this type of collateral.’

I said, ‘Ah’ It made sense to me and in my head I said, ‘Ah, well, I know where this was born,’ you know? I do not know if it was born there or not [with the woman who made the video of her masturbating so she would not eat cookies], but I already had that previous experience. Now there are several women who are there [in this group], right? Making this kind of commitment to their word, and I said, ‘Oh, OK’ and said, ‘Well, shoot, you guys have to be very careful in how you send your shitty collaterals because, damn, we could have an explosion here in Mexico, eh?’ And then that was all.

Emiliano Salinas with his sister Ceci salute the Vanguard at V-Week. They wear green t-shirts because they have the Green Rank in NXIVM.

Anthony Ames was the head of the Society of Protectors. He is also the husband of Sarah Edmondson. When he found out about Clare Bronfman-funded female pubic mutilation, he wouldn’t stand for it. He resigned from SOP.

Part 9: Salinas explains how Anthony Ames stormed out of NXIVM and his wife, Sarah Edmondson left


Prt 9 of the secretly recorded phone conversation in August 2017 between Toni Zarattini and Emiliano Salinas. [My explanatory comments are in bold]. Emiliano Salinas explains to Zarattini how things fell apart at the Coach Summit May 2017 in Albany, which he could not attend, because his twins were being born in San Diego.  


Emiliano Salinas [ES]. Then for the Coach Summit – I’m in San Diego – I’m telling [NXIVM High Rank] I’m not going to go to the Summit. I’m introducing Sebastian, my son. [Born from a surrogate mother in San Diego].

Toni Zarattini [TZ] : Yes, I was there [at Coach Summit]. I was there.

ES: I introduce Sebastian. I will not be able to go [to Coach Summit]. The idea was to announce that Mark [Vicente; who quit because of the branding] was leaving the organization and Omar [Boone, a High Rank {Green sash} who runs Monterrey Center under Emiliano] was going to be [promoted to become] a member of the [NXIVM] Executive Board [to replace Mark]. But, up to that point, honestly, I knew Mark had been having a lot of issues for more than a year, issues that, from my perspective, had not been resolved. But what I understood was that Mark had finally decided not to continue [with NXIVM] and do something else. The idea [at Coach Summit] was to pay tribute to Mark and we also did not regret giving tribute. From our [NXIVM]perspective, I want to say, this was still a friendly topic. Mark was [to be] given tribute. We [were planning to] introduce Omar as a member of the board.

Then, the next day, I was still in San Diego, and they tell me, an additional point in the chat of the Greens [Sash].  They suddenly posted, ‘we are setting a meeting with the Greens, to have lunch at the Thai Sushi.’ This was a meeting to agree on things for the Summit and other stuff and then, I think,  Esther [Chiappone-Carlson, a green] posted, ‘Remember Sara Bronfman [another green] will get there late because she is coming from’ [some distant place]. I don’t know where, ‘so then we will just be [at the Thai restaurant] Ceci [Salinas, a green] and me [Esther] right?’  Then Sarah Edmondson wrote in the thread, ‘Emi, [Salinas, too] no?’ And that is when I realized that I did not tell Sarah that I was not going to be at the Summit because my babies were being born, and I told her [I would not be there]. I apologized because I had not warned her, not because I was not going to the Summit, but because I did not tell her that my babies were [being] born, and [I posted on the thread] ‘I apologize, because, since Mark had left, I haven’t touched base with you to see how you are doing, because, I imagine, it must be difficult for you now that you’re going to be alone with the Vancouver [NXIVM] Center [Mark and her were partners], but, it has been because of my babies’, and she said, ‘thank you, the truth is I got confused because you did not contact me. Yes, it has been difficult. I am very afraid of how to face this alone now. Yes, it’s full of responsibilities. We will talk soon’ and that was it.

The next day, the Coach Summit started. I learned that Mope [Anthony Ames, Sarah’s husband] was leaving the organization and that he was very angry. [He was mad his wife was branded.]  

TZ: He went to make a mess there.

ES: Yes, what they told me is that he had gone to yell at Lauren [Salzman, Sarah Edmonson’s slave master, a green] That’s what they told me. That he went to yell at Lauren at the second day of the Summit, and he left the [NXIVM] organization. And then I wrote to Sarah, and I said, “Hey, I just found out about Nippy [her husband, Anthony]. How bad it is?  How can I help you? How are you?’ And her answer got me confused because it was simply, ‘What did you hear?’ and the reason I got confused was because [of her response], ‘What did you hear?’ Are there several versions? If she would have said, ‘It’s like hell’ or ‘It is not like hell and I will explain’ or whatever [that would have been acceptable] — but when there is only one version, there is no doubt that another person listened.  And when she asked, ‘what did you hear?’ I felt, ‘What? Is she checking me out to decide what she will tell me?’ That’s what I told myself. It can’t be. Besides, maybe it’s something that’s not public, and I shouldn’t even know that he left, or what it was [that caused Ames to leave NXIVM.] What they told me is that he had a problem with Lauren this morning, and he was announcing that he was leaving. So, she [Sarah] told me, ‘OK, if this thing is becoming ugly, I’m going to see my grandfather in Toronto’ and, I said, ‘good,’ and after that, two days later, I find out that she left the organization and why? Because Nippy had gotten angry because of the brand she had, a tattoo that a group of women had that she belonged to[all got], and in a second, I said, ‘It must be this group of women.’ I’m telling you that I still did not understand what they were talking about. Then I said, ‘this must be this group of women and they had a tattoo, and a tattoo – it’s Ok.’ [It was not a tattoo but a brand – there is a difference] Then I write to her [Sarah] and asked her what happened, and I do not remember what happened, but there were several things that began to make the situation hostile, and she wrote to me a few days later, and asked, ‘How are you?’ I told her, ‘Well, I feel in an alternative reality law that is happening through me right now. I mean, I was going to go to Summit where we were going to announce [Mark leaving], and I did not go because my children were [born]late. I was going to the Summit. I did not go because they were born at that time, but I was going to a Summit to tell Mark Vicente left the organization and that Omar was going to be a member of the Executive Board, and that is to say, what [happened in my absence was a]fucking apocalypse,’ and she said, ‘Look, we need to talk. I want to talk to you. I want to explain this to you, but right now I am very confused. I do not want to talk to you now.’

Part 10  SSalinas bashes Frank Report; ties Vicente and Edmondson to it & extortion

Emiliano Salinas [ES] … By this time Frank [Parlato] was already reporting everything, right? I got in [online on Frank Report] and I saw what he was saying about the group of women [DOS slaves] that there was some kind of woman abuse, and sex trafficking, and everything that it [Frank Report] says. [This conversation took place on August 2017 – and you have to admit I nailed the sex trafficking long before the feds charged Raniere and months before the NY Times had their story].

Toni Zarattini [TZ]: All the shit that´s written there [on Frank Report].

ES: All the shit he [Parlato] says, and I said, ‘Well this is like, “shit,”‘ but I was trying to understand what the truth is. I could not talk to many people because I was in San Diego and everyone in Albany was going crazy about the issue, trying to arrange all this, trying to fix it, but I could not talk to many people and so I read the Frank Report and it said that’s it.

TZ: Okay.

ES: And the truth is that one day I get into the Frank Report and basically I find myself involved [written about on Frank Report]. He was messing with my marriage, talking about my family, questioning my fatherhood, wondering if my children were Keith’s – with all that implies – that they were an experiment of Keith’s to create a super Mexican, talking about my wife’s shit, practically saying that she is a whore, putting together a theme of ‘what if I was really married to Alex,’ if my relationship with Mika [Ludwika Paleta, his wife] was a good screen. Well I mean –

TZ: Pure scumbag [Frank Parlato], Emiliano.

ES: Pure scum and in the same article that he had written a day before, he was exonerating Mark [Vicente]and Sarah [Edmonsdon] of anything. Saying all ESP was crap, all they [NXIVM] are doing is sinister and is evil, blah blah blah blah and that Sara and Mark were doing good because they, when they realized this, they left and closed Vancouver ESP Center and Los Angeles Center and he applauded them for that. So, I said ‘No. I do not have anything to talk to Sarah about. If the same guy [Frank Parlato] who is destroying my family and my reputation is exonerating her and Mark, well, definitely, I already know where this is coming from.’

TZ: Yes, I understand

ES: So, what this guy [Parlato] posts is very exaggerated, is distorted and it looks very badly written. For me, it has no credibility. You know what is the worst, and what is also a strategy that is known, it’s not a house recipe, or a secret, it is a well-known strategy, but it is a very effective strategy: You say something that has certain grains of truth and then you add everything you want, and the people who read it will tell you, ‘but at least that is true, at least I know that little piece of it is true,’ then you know that it makes everything else look, if not true, at least possible. It makes everything else possible, and that is ‘plant a doubt’ that you never, ever get out of your head. We see it in the module of Pride and Prejudice [Raniere lesson] and that is precisely what it is [the Frank Report does]: to speak with dishonor when you manage to put something in the Internal Representation of someone especially if you can link it with something that the person knows is true. You can put all the shit  you want in the Internal Representation of that person and you’re never going to take it out. Nobody is going to take it out, so then it turns out to be not that some people are not happy or satisfied, it’s a personal attack. Then I have information that these same people [Vicente, Edmondson]searched for Barbara Bouchey and are now working with Barbara Bouchey [Former NXIVM member who quit in 2009 and was sued by Raniere and Bronfman repeatedly] and with all that group that is extorting us, and now those are their instruments to carry out their extortion. And this is not something I’m saying, I’m telling you that this is [what we learned] in previous investigations in several countries.

[This of course is a lie Salinas is saying. Barbara Bouchey was not extorting NXIVM in 2017. She quit in 2009 and was trying her best to avoid NXIVM. It was Raniere who was pursuing her – suing her repeatedly. She was not working with Sarah or Mark or for that matter myself. She was merely trying to get on with her life. This is the true sinister nature of NXIVM, Raniere and Salinas. They lie at will. They attack other human beings and then claim that the people they attack are attacking them. It is dark and evil. And I am so proud that Emiliano got a taste of his own medicine via my Frank Report. There is a difference however: What I wrote about Salinas is true.]

Part 11 Emiliano on confidentiality agreement and paranoia about extortion

Eniliano Salinas [ES] : There is a [Mexican] criminal investigation for extortion [against NXIVM enemies – reputedly Frank Parlato, Toni Natalie, Catherine Oxenberg, Barbara Bouchey, Susan Dones, Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson] and in addition Frank Report reported there is a criminal investigation against Sarah Edmondson for fraud in Vancouver and for stealing our database.  When you leave the organization, – with her [Sarah Edmondson]pretending it was a friendly departure – and we thought it was that way. We thought, ‘ok, so if she  leaves {NXIVM] , let’s take over the Vancouver Center and see how we can make this a smooth transition. The protocol says, you to return the materials and the information, the database, because the database belongs to, and is owned by ESP.

Toni Zarattini [TZ] : Ok, the database of all the students?

ES:  All the students. They [Sarah and her assistant Jen Kobelt] kept the database and started talking to the students in the database to un-enroll them from ESP, and talk shit about it.  They then become, at this moment, instruments of extortion. Because in the end that’s what they threatened us with, ‘you do not give me that money and that’s what I’m going to do’. That’s what they’re doing.

TZ: Ok, ok.

ES: So it’s not that we’re stuck in saying that a lot of ESP students left. I understand that. No, there’s a group of people who are conspiring to actively destroy our company. They’re actively destroying our credibility, our reputation, our relationships and there is extortion. Of course, the authorities this because it is not just a threat now. They are fulfilling it.

TZ: Ok.

ES: And it is documented … .  When you [Toni] land in [the middle of] all of this – you can understand we were a bit paranoid and defensive. When you say: ‘Emi, right away they take me out of all the chats and they take Marial [Toni’s wife] from the chats.’ It is not that this is exploding in the Frank Report and there is someone who is giving them [Frank Report]information [NXIVM enemies]. I am going to tell you something else and I do not know if it’s true and if it is true then I will also understand what your reasons were, but they told us you had agreed to gather information for them [NXIVM enemies] and in fact you were coming [to Vanguard Week] for that.

TZ: Of course not, Of course not. I do not know why, Emiliano. I lost about 20 thousand dollars, because I did not go to V-Week because they took me out of the chats and I gave up on the organization.

ES: The decision to take you out of the chats came after they told us that you were coming to V-Week and coming as a spy for them.

TZ: This week, Emiliano has been one of the most scummy weeks of my life, Emiliano, because I was talking with a stream of people that were giving out information. But I did not only talk to Sarah [Edmonson] and Nippy [Anthony Ames, Edmondson’s husband]. I spoke to a lot of people who left the organization and are definitely not part of any group. That is, as I talk to you, and if I can understand it, without having this data, [I only understood that] they kicked us out for asking questions, then they shut us up, well it’s like, shit Emi.

ES: Look, of course, I understand you. I want you to know and I hope you believe me, I do not think, I do not believe, that the [NXIVM] intention was to shut you up. Two things that came to my mind. The secrecy and the lies [of the enemies]. We all signed a confidentiality agreement when entering ESP. I do not want to say that it is secret, I mean that there is information that is confidential and we do not want to reveal and therefore this.

TZ: What about the material? How does the material and the EMs and all the modules work and all that?

ES: No, you will understand that the fact that you keep confidential does not mean it is bad.

TZ: Yes, correct, but for me it [the confidentiality agreement] is very different from being told, ‘Do not talk with such person; do not look for information outside; do not do that and do not ask.’  For me that is different Emi. It’s different. You sign a confidentiality agreement because you do not have to go explaining to people how the modules work and how they create the integrations and the content of everything that is said in the courses. But for me, it is very different from ‘do not ask anymore.’ ‘I can’t tell you,’ and ‘do not ask,’ and ‘you have an issue, you have an issue with knowing.’ Or do you disagree?

ES: I do not disagree with you, but I’ll tell you how I understand it. I think it’s going to make sense. If I sign a confidentiality agreement and then you begin to ask me why I have been so many years ago, I know what I can tell you and what I can’t. So I can have a very open conversation with you and know that there are things that I cannot divulge. I cannot reveal but I feel very calm about it. I have been 15 years in ESP and I have been dealing with people who take the course for 15 years and when they are asked about the course, they are paralyzed. They do not know what they can say and can’t say and then at each Intensive [NXIVM courses] I have to explain that it is not that it is secret; it is not that it has anything hidden, but that we are simply trying to protect the tools and the methodology of the information. But I understand when people finish the course and [other people] they ask them what the course is about, and they [the NXIVM students] say, ‘shit, now, what can I say, because I don’t know if anything I say violates the confidentiality contract. I do not know if it violates it, or if it does not violate it,’ so you know what? It’s better you go [to NXIVM High Rank] and find out.

TZ: Yes, I understand.

{What kind of insane organization has people so confused that they don’t know what they can say and can’t say about courses they pay tens of thousands of dollars for? On top of that, Raniere was notorious for not giving students a copy of their confidentiality agreements so they did not even know what they signed and what they were prohibited from talking about. Nice cult.]

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Frank Parlato


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  • Where is the rest of the audio? What is translated is way more than what I heard in the audio… Nevertheless, Emiliano is a really stupid dude trying to justify KR’s atrocities with really dumb circular, very narrow and manipulative arguments. It’s painful to hear people fell for this crap

  • Even reading the English translation, it’s clear that Emi is adept at KAR-style circular, word salad, jive talking, e.g.:

    ” You have a relationship with a person and it is a fantastic relationship and suddenly something makes the person ruin the relationship and that contaminates all our internal representation of the relationship.”

    The Vanguard has taught him well.

  • Raniere seemed to think that anyone no longer enthralled with him, who wanted to paid for what they had done – or be repaid for losses from his failed business dealings – and move on with their lives, was “extorting” him.

    The interesting question is whether Salinas actually believed Raniere’s take on the situation, or just believed in the ends-justify-the-means philosophy that lying about it was necessary.

    I think we also see here how the supposed process of “exploration” is actually one of manipulation to bring the subject into agreement with the organization and its leader. Other high control groups like Scientology use similar pseudo-scientific and pseudo-intellectual methods of indoctrination and control, disguised as supposed logic and investigation.

  • Everyone else in NXIVM has a nickname, now Frank has one – SCUMBAG. Way to go, Frank. Now you’re a member of their “community.”

    I also agree with your point about the NDA, NXIVM should have told them what they can and cannot say. Imagine how many people didn’t join because the recruiter was nervous about this issue when being asked questions by a prospect. Raniere, as the smartest man in the world, should have thought of this, but he was too busy f*cking various women and girls, eating pizza, playing volleyball, and taking long walks. LOL

  • Correction – It’s NOT a brand, a brand would take one or two seconds. The cauterizing (flesh burning) went on for a half hour or so, without any anesthesia, in one of the most sensitive parts of the body.

  • Very interesting to read that. This the problem – if you have a cult but at its core are awful secrets that most members would run a mile at if they knew then are rotten at the core and as soon as the information gets out you lose most of your members. As this chap makes clear it is how awful it was bound to appear to the wider world – branding etc that means even if the women had chosen to do it and it helped them those around should have stopped them doing it because it would be such bad PR.

    Also the way things were twisted to suggest those who left and had to defend abusive law suits wre somehow extorting money is so twisted.. As so as a member is told not to read things on line most sensible course attendees and members should have a warning bell ringing in their heads as indeed did this TZ.

  • I do believe that emiliano had no idea, not only because i know him, but remember how KR is so insecure and jealous.
    Under no circumstances he would include a good looking powerful man on his sick plans

  • The extortion letters were probably from the NXIVM 9, as Salinas said it had been going on for a long time. Of course, this was before DOS, but Salinas is saying the DOS people and others are piling on.

  • 1. It appears many Nexians outside the inner circle had no idea of Keith’s affairs.

    It surprises me. Usually these things leak out or can be easily observed or felt in the behavior of the attractive women that surround the leader or in the with-drawl of the significant other of the leader.

    2. Salinas, although shocked about revelations about DOS branding/blackmailing, did not act wisely or bravely to investigate them. He folded and adopted the party line to protect the organization and deserves to suffer for this.

    3. Zaratinni is to be commended. He was sane enough to separate questioning Nx methodology vs. contronting the immorality and criminal behavior of DOS and Nx. He risked being shunned and losing out financially to do the right thing and press forward to ask questions.

    4. All of this information should keep the pressure on Nx adherents in Mexico and in particular, Salinas.

      • No, for months and even years, commenters have claimed that all Espians MUST HAVE KNOWN of the “bad things,” especially anyone who was a coach, even if they didn’t live in Albany.

  • Frank: I think it is commendable that you and Toni are trying to stop the NXIVM atrocities in Mexico. So glad that you are covering the trial.

  • Jajajajajajajaaa…

    pinche Emi es un Gran Pendejo

    Que besa el culo de Keith Raniere.

    Besalo pendejo. Maricon mendigo

About the Author

Frank Parlato is an investigative journalist.

His work has been cited in hundreds of news outlets, like The New York Times, The Daily Mail, VICE News, CBS News, Fox News, New York Post, New York Daily News, Oxygen, Rolling Stone, People Magazine, The Sun, The Times of London, CBS Inside Edition, among many others in all five continents.

His work to expose and take down NXIVM is featured in books like “Captive” by Catherine Oxenberg, “Scarred” by Sarah Edmonson, “The Program” by Toni Natalie, and “NXIVM. La Secta Que Sedujo al Poder en México” by Juan Alberto Vasquez.

Parlato has been prominently featured on HBO’s docuseries “The Vow” and was the lead investigator and coordinating producer for Investigation Discovery’s “The Lost Women of NXIVM.” Parlato was also credited in the Starz docuseries "Seduced" for saving 'slave' women from being branded and escaping the sex-slave cult known as DOS.

Additionally, Parlato’s coverage of the group OneTaste, starting in 2018, helped spark an FBI investigation, which led to indictments of two of its leaders in 2023.

Parlato appeared on the Nancy Grace Show, Beyond the Headlines with Gretchen Carlson, Dr. Oz, American Greed, Dateline NBC, and NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt, where Parlato conducted the first-ever interview with Keith Raniere after his arrest. This was ironic, as many credit Parlato as one of the primary architects of his arrest and the cratering of the cult he founded.

Parlato is a consulting producer and appears in TNT's The Heiress and the Sex Cult, which premiered on May 22, 2022. Most recently, he consulted and appeared on Tubi's "Branded and Brainwashed: Inside NXIVM," which aired January, 2023.

IMDb — Frank Parlato

Contact Frank with tips or for help.
Phone / Text: (305) 783-7083


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