The following was written in response to the post, ‘Jaye’, Who Testified at Raniere Trial, Reveals Identity With Announcement of Podcast. It was submitted anonymously, with the moniker, “They were OK with that.” I do not know who the author is.
By “They were OK with that…”
It’s all so very sad. It seems as though everyone involved in NXIVM and DOS has ‘good intent’ on both sides. All of these people had dedicated their lives to each other and were living in community to build what they considered a more humane and caring world. To see that come to this ruination has to be so devastating for each life involved.
Unfortunately, when people believe there is no “absolute truth” and each person gets to decide truth for his or herself, the whole foundation of “good” or “bad” intent crumbles.
I’m not defending or judging anyone. However, it does appear that all involved in DOS were consenting adults when they joined and all of them proceeded, even when they say they saw ‘red flags’.
They knew the concept of “collateral,” it was part of the curriculum and had been used in other programs. I think the concept of collateral is a ridiculous idea and a flimsy tool for inspiring commitment, but they did not, they believed in it.
We are trying to honor and defend these women based on our value system; they were taught and willingly subscribed to an alternative set of values. They knew what they were doing.
They knew they were walking near the ledge and pushing boundaries, they did not want an ‘ordinary’ life. Most of Keith Raniere’s teachings were counter-cultural and all of those involved paid a lot of money to be pushed outside of their comfort zones.
I’m not quite certain how crying “foul” after the fact, for something you signed up for and believed in, is fair.
I know some will say collateral invalidates consent, but women had left DOS prior and did not have their collateral released. And again, they knew how collateral worked when they signed on and they agreed to it. No one forced or pressured anyone to join. In fact, they seem to have put up roadblocks such as collateral/brand/life commitment to stop the faint of heart from joining. These women all literally signed off to a master and brand on a spreadsheet prior to joining, according to Lauren’s testimony.
- They knew that KR had claimed to be a renunciate and now was polyamorous…they were ok with that. And continued paying money for more courses, to learn more.
- They knew of KR’s self-made claims that he was one of the smartest men in the world…they were ok with that.
- They knew the belief that one should avoid paying taxes if possible…they were ok with that.
- They understood the concept of collateral…they were ok with that.
- They knew they would need to give naked pics or lie about their family to learn more…they were ok with that.
- They knew they would get a symbolic brand…they were ok with that.
- They knew prior to joining that they would need to obey their master regardless of what she asked them to do…they were ok with that.
- They knew negative things had been said about the group in the press…they were ok with that.
These women were not virginal maidens. They wanted to be bad-ass. They wanted to be pushed. They didn’t want ordinary lives of safety when they first paid their collateral to learn more.
In regards to the symbolic meaning of the brand, most symbols have multiple meanings. I often wear a cross. A cross was an executioner’s device of torture…that is not what it symbolizes for me. A symbol represents something we value.
They valued DOS when they joined and agreed to it.
I am not a member of KR’s fan club and I am too prudish and frugal to have ever taken a course, but these women paid KR thousands upon thousands of dollars to learn his values. And once they did, they paid more to remain in the community and live by those values.
They literally bought into this with full knowledge that his values and strategies pushed against society norms. That’s what they wanted. And now these same women who didn’t want societal norms, after the fact, want to judge those involved by societal norms.
If KR is to be accountable with 120 years of his life, they should be accountable for the choices they made as intelligent, consenting women who knew what they wanted and actually made a pretty big commitment/sacrifice to sign on.
Frank, prior to this you have been a blogger with an agenda, not a journalist. To your credit, this story about Jessica Joan is journalism. You shared both sides of the story, point – counter point, and are letting others decide for themselves. Thank you.
They didn’t all know that. Some went to be branded thinking it might be a tattoo or did not know it would be 30 minutes without pain relief. Some did not know a lot of other things. They didn’t all give informed consent – that it the nub of it.
However this why it is all so interesting – what is consent and what is not? I remember when my sibling was involves in the rajneesh cult looking at these issues. We can only get these organisations when they do precise crimes eg tax evasion or poisoning local residents or fixing elections or sex with 15 year olds. The rest of it is usually not criminal and is just about consensual even if they hook you in with pretending they are something other than they are.
This article talks in too big of generalities. Some of the women of DOS were prosecuted. Probably a lot more should have been. I wouldn’t say all of them.
When the Frank Report becomes a Raniere, Mack et al and nxivm, Jness, DOS defense forum, it will be time for me to move on to other things than wasting my time here.
You may want to move on. While this is not a defense forum for Nxivm etc., I do plan to examine the prosecution and the trial closely.
Frank, I for one am not interested in the potential flaws of the prosecution. I realize others are, I wouldn’t suggest otherwise. Please sprinkle other stories in between them so those obsessed followers like myself have variety. SOP details haven’t been revealed, and many of us are interested.
…more on SOP.
Agree. Mark. V could win more hearts and minds if he would spill on SOP. It would take a level of honesty, humility and vulnerability that he hasn’t shown yet. Bravery too. Let the ego go. Take us behind the sash!
So…why again were these points not made at trial in Keith’s defense, so the jury could consider them?
Oh wait – the prosecution systematically identified, located, intimidated and threatened each and every potential defense witness prior to trial. I forgot.
Based on order of events, this article isn’t wrong. The woman did volunteer every step of the way. Even after they got the branding, they continued on like normal. It was only until their significant others got involved did they change their minds. Raniere made a lot of mistakes on the branding front (like doing it at all) but one of them is including married woman. I can’t help but wonder if he had excluded them, would this still be going on? To my knowledge, none of the woman, on their own reached the conclusion of this “this is really bad.” Everyone one of them had to be pushed by external forces be it the Frank Report article, significant others, or family.
—I’m not quite certain how crying “foul” after the fact, for something you signed up for and believed in, is fair.
Okay, so by your logic:
When an under age man, who agrees to pledge a fraternity, dies because of alcohol poisoning from pledge drinking, the man/pledge is therefore at fault. Therefore the fraternity is not culpable legally or morally.
Only the young man is responsible for his untimely demise. The pledge/man made a vow of obedience to the fraternity and accepted all possibilities positive or negative.
Is my example in harmony/congruous with your perspective?
I am attempting to understand your perspective. I am not being condescending. I would greatly appreciate an answer.
The only problem with your logic is it holds no water legally or by modern society’s standards. We aren’t living in AD1200.
You have a philosophical perspective which the modern world no longer accepts.
Pinky Square or Secret Pledges do not mean you can sign away your legal rights as a human being to life and liberty.
This is one of those times the illustrious K.R. Claviger Barrister Supreme should weigh in and educate us as to the law.
Even worse, it’s like if the Frat recruited people who were systematically lied to and manipulated into a new set of beliefs and values that made the Frat the supreme authority on truth and morality. Oh, and the pledge was assured that anything they would be told to do, in this commitment they were to embark on, would be devised exclusively for their own benefit (also a lie). Most people on this planet wouldn’t agree that maintaining a lifelong commitment, no matter what lies were underneath it and how much harm it is causing, is noble. So, the fact that many of these women maintained that position for so long (and/or still do) should illustrate how deeply they were messed with, psychologically.
You are right; it is worse. Good points.
The Nxivm 5 will not be responding to any of us no matter how polite we are. Because deep down inside, they know we are right.
They were told that DOS was only for women and only about women. They were lied to; in fact, they were becoming slaves to a male master. It’s the deception that makes DOS an unethical and criminal organization.
Granted, these women were fools. Gullible, impressionable idiots. Nonetheless they are deserving of protection from the legal system.
Scams often target the foolish. The classic target of the conman is the greedy fool.
Raniere is clearly guilty of fraud, extortion, and sex trafficking. The foolishness of his marks notwithstanding.
Everything that contributed to Raniere’s conviction is known. And so is the outcome. The Frank Report is not the appellate body and does not change the course of the trial. Anyone who wants to appeal should do so in court, but not here in the comments column or in the report section. I will never stand up for the convicted Raniere and his accomplices. Let them do it themselves.
For women who longed to be strong, bad ass women accountable for their own lives, who were then gullible enough to join a “secret society”…ssshhh…I’m going to whisper this…there will be “secrets”.
Did these women who joined even research the origin of secret societies before joining one? For a group who has the goal of promoting truth, equality, and love for humanity…I find it beyond ironic. Maybe they didn’t do their homework, maybe these women who wanted to be strong and accountable just trusted that someone else knew better than them…and it just so happened to be a man. Come on ladies, we can do better!
—trusted that someone else knew better than them…and it just so happened to be a man—
Actually, they were told by their female friend that women ran the secret society.
What no one says about the brand is that It resembles a satanic ritual meaning, that is so much pain that makes you disintegrate, your personality splits. The brand is suppose tp have Magic properties, but the truth is just that a extreme quantity of pain , and it should.be made in a ritual, that looked like a human sacrifice. Only a crazy person would say yes at these point, so no they didn’t know.
True journalism is saying the truth, giving a platform for defending something immoral is just that giving the opportunity of defending horrible actions. If they want to defend It, great they should make their own blog. The víctims had enough of attacks anyway.
Starting from if there wasn’t a combination of circumstances Nxivm would be remain in shadows and will continue to destroy lives, without a consequence like they did to so many for decades . All the people that defend Nxivm have the same thoughts, believes and mentality that the perpetuators, which are just a proof of the misogyny that create the conditions for.people.to confuse torture with a normal thing that happens in society
Everyone except Camila the first slave right? If there was one lie that whole process goes to shit right?
As Dianne Lipson specifies, the facts are false.
However poetically presented to sucker us in to another victim NOT blame game.
I wonder if the 900 or so suckers at Jonestown back in 1978 were OK with that Kool-aide after they shot their grandmas and kids for Jim Jones.
I wonder what was in the food at V-week 2016 that got everyone but Keith and his favorite toys so sick.
I wonder what beverage one-L Alison is sipping today.
Congrats on your coronation from vendetta blogger to balanced journalist, Frank. Will there be a ceremony? Some kind of feast?
These are good points and they are one of the many elephants in the room. But when you say this… “Unfortunately, when people believe there is no “absolute truth” and each person gets to decide truth for his or herself, the whole foundation of “good” or “bad” intent crumbles.” ….
this statement makes me wonder, where is it in your belief people should possibly find absolute truth? Who or what do you trust to imbue people with any kind of absolute universal value system?
When one stops being a kid in a world where everybody tells you what to do, when one becomes an adult, this is a rite of passage discovery: Nobody knows anything. Everyone is making it up as they go along, based on what feels right true or good to them. Some people are able to forge an authentic existence once they get there. Others get depressed and nihilistic. Others fall back on old traditions, many of which have proven to be false manipulative BS claims for the sake of ‘order’.
I would like to ask the writer of this to elaborate, where do they think adults can turn to find any truth beyond the truth that exists inside oneself in each moment?
Thank you for your thoughtful question.
I believe absolute truths exist. They are the things that are true whether we choose to believe them or not. Gravity is an example. There is a Divine Being is another. Intelligence can’t evolve without an original intelligent design. Nature tells us this, as does something deep in our souls. One can deny it, but that doesn’t mean it ceases to be true.
I believe author Charles Colson says it better than I can, “Many people assume that anyone who holds absolute moral principles must automatically be absolutist in mentality as well: rigid, inflexible, and hostile. But there are two completely different kinds of absolutes.
For Christians, God himself is the only absolute; truth and ethics are rooted in his character. This keeps us from looking for absolutes anywhere in the created world. We should never deify any person, idea, or political system.
Secular absolutes are often advanced by the power of the sword. But transcend absolutes, when rightly understood, foster tolerance – because our ultimate allegiance is to the things above, not to any group or government deified here on earth.”
I’ve been watching this Nxivm story almost since the beginning.
The Mentality of a hand full of people in a leaky boat are gonna save the world just baffles the mind. Within this group there is a sub group who’s initiation into the group is a vow and nude pictures and they did it. What happened after that is WOW! how stupid do you have to be, now it’s ‘oh poor poor me look what happened to me,’ no one is standing up for themselves and saying ‘I must have been out of my mind but I did this to my self,’ now it’s all over but the crying and let’s see who can get what from whomever is willing to pay, be it a mini Series, a book, paid interviews
I just think it’s ironic they learned nothing from Nxivm but they all sure spent a lot of money.
—The Mentality of a hand full of people in a leaky boat are gonna save the world just baffles the mind.
I am pretty dumbfounded myself.
There was a lot of deception to all of it though. I think Keith did a really really good job of making sure everyone, even those right below him, only had limited knowledge about what was going on
Do you think some of the more high-profile, unconventional, bad-ass choosers of their own destiny—like Allison Mack and Nicki Clyne knew about the underage sex stuff? I’m surprised more players aren’t being locked-up specifically for that.
And Allison Mack knows that she is a Pimp!
Forty Years in Prison For Allison Pimp Mack!
Shadow, what turned you from a mega fan of Allison Mack to hating her? [redacted]
I do not believe Shadow was ever a mega fan of Allison.
Frank will you ever publish an [abridged] collection of ShadowState’s voluminous Allison Mack Column articles? That is, as long as Shadowstate agrees.
At the very least his work be whittled down to a worthy tome.
An apt working title could be…
A Shadow’s Thoughts on Pimp Mack
I was never a fan of Allison Mack.
When I was a kid, I liked Noel Neill.
It all makes sense now……..
Noel Neill covered her cankles with long skirts.
….. And all this time I thought you were without reason.
Didn’t you creep her out over something? Why was/is it Allison Mack you hate the most?
The rumor is Allison Mack, at an autograph signing, was rude to Shadow at the 2003 Comic Con Atlanta he attended with his nephew.
Bangkok, good to see you’re feeling well.
I would argue that decisions made as a result of incremental coercion, does not constitute a true informed consent, regardless of age. Couple that with being taught to negate one’s own gut instincts—sets the stage for exploitation.
No one cares.
No one cares about … ?
Great comment Veritas. Sums it up in two short sentences unlike the boring repetitive drivel of the NXIVM supporters.
Couple that with being gullible enough to continue paying for courses so that you can be exploited…I guess they got what they paid for.
Gullible is looking at the before and after pictures–then buying that face cream which has never eliminated a wrinkle since it hit the market. Incremental, systematic, coercive indoctrination can take down the very best of good hearted people. And in this case it did–by the hundreds, if not thousands.
Nxivm women didn’t have to buy or even apply face cream because their SOP men applied it for them.
How many Nxivm men have HPV from women who have lane with Keith Raniere?
The Frank Report has yet to report on this potentially huge health crisis.
HPV (human papillomavirus) has been proven to cause cancer not just in women’s uteruses but throughout the human body in men and women.
After cigarette smoking, HPV is the second highest cause of male throat cancer.
Sorry, SOP boys, but you’re shit out of luck.
So did Raniere. He knew all of the illegal and unethical things he was doing and got caught. Who cares?
I wonder how much Frank is getting paid under the table for all of this.
Actually the statement is illogical, since you make the hasty assumption that I am being paid for something presumably secretly.
It should be logically stated. I wonder if Frank is being paid under the table for “all of this” and how much? You might also try being more clear: What is “all of this”?
Frank, who is uglier, Ally Wack or Nicky Slime?
I think they are both attractive women. And most people would agree with that I think. I mean outside of what anyone might think of their association with Nxivm, if one were to simply look at their pictures, say, if someone was shown their pictures who know nothing about Nxivm or who they are, I think the vast majority would say they are both attractive women.
Visually they read as unbalanced and crazy, many men seek just that for a good time.
So… you don’t think Nicki Slime looks like a fish being choked? Or that Ally Wack has some inbreeding history in her genes? They are both threes and that is being generous.
I view them a little differently than you. Of course I am old enough to be their father. But I would rate them both as 10s, based on pure appearance.
Of course the association with Keith as their lover diminishes things. But speaking of just appearances, but women are even more engaging in person, and I have seen both in person fairly recently.
They both hot. Hot and crazy…but still hot. Even knowing their history, I would take the risk if could date them.
If you are going to ask Frank a question of a sexual nature, you should frame it as a game.
Hi Frank! Let’s play F’-Marry-Kill
Clare Bronfman, Nancy Salzman and Sara Bronfman.
Who do you F’ ?
Who do you marry?
Who do you kill ?
“I view them a little differently than you. Of course, I am old enough to be their father….”
Methinks Frank doth protest too much here.
Illogical? No. Presumptive? Yes.
Why exactly then are you giving a voice to the NXIVM-5 and Raniere after running a blog for nearly five years that was a loose cannon against NXIVM, Raniere, the Bronfmans, other particular members of NXIVM, celebrity or otherwise, etc. In the comments and the articles, where insults were given free rein even against other commenters, but now you are attempting to seem more restrained and “professionally journalistic” by culling what is allowed?
I don’t buy your after-the-fact reasoning. It definitely has to do with your case, or money, whether by way of clicks, or under the table, and nothing to do with some sudden turn of integrity when it comes to justice and journalistic ethics.
Being presumptive is illogical. Consider your use of the word “definitely” in the last paragraph, stated of course without evidence. The correct word for a logical person would be “might.”
And the reason “might” is the logical word is because you do not provide evidence to support your “definitely” statement which is an absolute. And in the event you are wrong, you are then proven to be ignorant on top of illogical. But if you write “might” and none of your proposed reasons are true, you do not look either ignorant or illogical.
As for my reasons for doing what I am doing, it will soon become clear.
No. Logic has to do with bad reasoning. I am simply making a judgement of you based on your history and the content of what has been previously posted on this site. That’s why I said it was presumptive, which means nothing more than something which is presumed from them. I only asserted something, but never made an argument for it, nor said it was proved. Only then can you say it is “illogical”.
You obviously do not know logic. When you say, “I only asserted something, but never made an argument for it, nor said it was proved,” you assert things as fact without evidence. When you use the word “definitely” [when you really should use “might,” or “I suspect.”] you are making a hasty conclusion for you are leaving no room for the possibility that you are in error.
Yet you provide no evidence of your assertion. It’s OK to be wrong, and since you are anonymous, you don’t have to apologize.
No. Presumptive is not necessarily illogical since it implies inference that simply may or may not be sufficient. I did not assert “facts without evidence”. I gave a clear indicator of why I felt that way: your past history on this blog. And the “definitely” part had to do with some OTHER reason besides integrity and journalistic ethics of which those were examples of such, something motivated by personal benefit rooted in financial gain in some manner, a notion broached also because of the former. You may feel that such evidence is weak and doesn’t hold up and that I didn’t prove it — and I never claimed I did — but the reasoning for it is not illogical.
You can’t escape from your one breach of logic– the use of the word ‘definitely.” Saying something is “definitely” the case when it is only your supposition is a hasty conclusion. You merely needed to change the one word to “might” or “possibly” or “I suspect” or even “I surmise” and you would have been within the bounds of logic. Or if you prefer another word “accurate.”
Are you arguing with SultanOfSix? His pretentiousness and attempts at logic seem very sultan-ish. There is a familiar smugness about this poster.
I do not know if it is Sultan. If it is, I would love to have him sign off on it. I do like Sultan. I mean, he is like an old friend.
[Redacted] Old friends are not like [redacted]
Do you think this was dedicated to Kristin Kreuk?
His tone and delivery is [redacted]
Frank was attacked first. He was a contractor. He did not take a course. He started this because of a target onslaught of litigation by KR and Clare.
Frank was the engine that nuked KR and his followers into oblivion. If you even stated on a resume that you took a NXVIM course. You would have zero chance getting that job.
If Frank can make a living by following this story and people are interested, thus he will get small advertising payments. He bloody well earned it. He never asked anyone for collateral.
Christ Sake!!! Give Parlato some credit! Like he’d be so transparent. Unless of course Nancy Salzman is involved. She is a menopausal succubus. Her touch alone can cause a man to climax with a blue-light ending.
One time, Frank told me, “Blue-Light Specials only existed in Kmart until I met Nancy.”
Most of the women did not know that Raniere was the real leader of DOS. They were recruited by trusted female friends. Nor did they know that Keith had a harem. Information about Keith was highly controlled and compartmentalized. He was presented as a renunciate who lived a monk-like existence and spent his time solving mankind’s problems.
If I remember correctly, women who left DOS did so when DOS was publicly exposed. At that point, releasing collateral would have been radioactive for NXIVM.
Thanks, Dianne, for that neatly packaged response. I’m tired of seeing this court case “retried” here over and over. Done; guilty; take it to appeal if ya wanna complain.
I’m pretty sure by the time DOS was up and running most of the community knew Keith was sleeping around. He was living with two women and one was having a baby.
There were many pregnant females around, some were ‘anchor baby’ surrogates.
Living with two female roommates is far less indicative of having a sexual relationship with either than living with only one woman would be to most unsuspecting onlookers being told that Keith was a monk-like renunciate.
Besides, if they didn’t know Keith was head of, involved with DOS — a fact that was concealed — what would it matter who Keith was maybe sleeping with.
Dianne Lipson, I second L’s sentiments and – thank you for your ‘self -effacing clarity, on available facts, collected conscienciously’ – much appreciated. I thought this article was short sweet and to the point, incase you missed it.
There is a story Frank posted about a woman who after eating ice cream at a lunch during a business meeting to sell her old laptop had an epiphany and realized how stupid Keith was and quietly left DOS and didn’t tell him. I import the guarantee, but they never released it, the guarantee only has power if you are afraid and all this happened before the story was made public
That explains the crime of extortion, dear anonymous. Or?
Without knowing the details of her collateral, it’s impossible to compare DOS members.