Allison Mack seems to have been a hybrid: She wanted to help women become better — mixed with the self-centered desire of being a master [and grandmaster] over beautiful women and procuring these women for Keith and possibly herself.
India Oxenberg and Michele Hatchette have differing views of Allison Mack. There is Michele Hatchette and Danielle Roberts, who were Allison’s “slaves”, who felt Allison was kind and interested in their welfare.
Then we have Jessica Joan [AKA Jaye], Nicole and India Oxenberg who tell a story of a demanding and vicious Allison Mack.
Allison was not all good or bad. Whether she followed Raniere’s orders out of duty as a slave – or enjoyed her role as a master a little too much – is hard to say.
Numerous DOS women said they were coerced to do certain, allegedly illegal acts because of the collateral that was held over them.
Is Allison different? She also gave collateral, which wound up in the hands of Raniere.
Was Allison coerced to do things because of the collateral she gave, or did she enjoy her own “rule by collateral” over her own slaves?
There is an apocryphal story, first told by Stanley Ellin, I believe, of Allison Mack, when she was challenged one day by one of her slaves.
Allison had said it was her duty to help her slaves become empowered and “bad-ass” and that was a hard task that took a lot of time and effort.
The slave didn’t sound angry at all, only puzzled.
“Is that all it is to you?” the slave asked. “A duty?”
“Yes!”
“But you get paid for it with our free labor, our acts of care, don’t you?”
“I get paid little enough for it, yes,” Allison said.
The slave kept looking at Allison in that strange sort of puzzled way.
“Only a duty?” the slave asked again, never once taking her eyes off Allison. “But you enjoy it, don’t you?”
That was the question the slave asked Allison. “You enjoy it, don’t you?”
Allison had demanded of her slaves “first collateral,” then “second collateral”, then monthly collateral, naked, graphic pictures of the slaves with closeups of their genitals and oftentimes confessions to crimes or betrayals of others, sometimes true and sometimes false confessions – and Allison had to spend the time to decide whether the collateral was strong enough to ruin a slave reputationally in each and every area of her life – this to ensure their discipline in order to help them improve themselves.
Allison also arranged to wake them up in the middle of the night with readiness drills, and had the hard task of punishing them, sometimes with paddling, [and a cage in a dungeon was planned,] if they failed to wake up in time.
She had to forgo her own sleep many nights to do this.
She also had to put the slaves on low-calorie vegetarian diets [her own diet was 800 calories per day] so that the fat on the women did not disturb their leader’s spiritual vibrations should he bed them.
She gave the women constant assignments and allowed them to serve her with acts of care. She took them on outings, and gathered them together and made them all undress and sit on the couch and take nude photographs, to give to her master, Keith Raniere, the leader of the sorority. They had to smile broadly while Allison took pictures of their faces and genitals in the photos.
This she did for the sake of the women.
She got to please her own master, Raniere, by assigning the slaves, whether reluctant or not, to seduce him. This was to help them learn important lessons. All this, again, to make them bad-ass, to make them disciplined.
She approved their vacations, controlled where they worked, told them where they had to live. They had to seek her permission to go to sleep each night. She forbid them to have sex or masturbate or shave their pubic hairs. She would inspect them to see if it was unshaven and unwaxed.
She would tell them about how to shower — whether to have a cold or hot shower.
So many things she did for her slaves.
She had absolute rulership over a group of women, slaves they were called, and Allison had to work hard to have control of their lives — all with the intent to make them empowered as women.
And she stood there at her home at night and lit candles and told the slaves to undress, that they were about to be branded with a symbol that represented the four elements, and she stood there as they were being filmed naked and looked at them being held down by other naked slaves, while they said ‘Master, please brand me, it would be an honor.”
An honor she knew meant lifelong dedication to the sorority led by her sex partner, Raniere [whose initials the brand really represented]
Enjoy it?
That was the question her slave asked her That is what her slave asked, as if Allison didn’t have the same feelings deep down that we all have.
“My God, how could anyone not enjoy it?” Allison said.
Michael Rosenbaum had to kick Allison Mack out of his house
On a 2020 episode of Inside of You, Rosenbaum recalled a disturbing incident with Mack. Sometime after Rosenbaum left Smallville, Mack reached out to him and asked to come over for a visit. But she showed up at his house with two friends.
“She’s in the vicinity, she comes over the house,” Rosenbaum recalled. “And she walks in and [when] she walked in she was a different person. She walked in like she owned my house, like literally, she owned my home.”
Rosenbaum said that Mack and her friends casually walked into his kitchen, pulled out pots and pans, and started cooking. When he asked what they were doing, Mack said they were making food because they were hungry.
Rosenbaum was uncomfortable with this invasion of space. So he asked Mack and her companions to leave. But her male friend became physically and verbally violent.
“‘You just come in, you start cooking in my house, you guys don’t even say why,’” Rosenbaum said he told Mack and her friends. “Why don’t you guys just go. I’d actually like you to get the f**k out of my house.’”
But the actor noted that Mack’s reaction to him was even more bizarre than the visit. “I remember I was waiting for Allison to sort of jump in and say ‘I’m so sorry, no no, he doesn’t mean this,’” Rosenbaum revealed. “There was nothing. It was just like, it was almost like they were zombies. That’s how I remember. I’ll never forget it.”
I’ll summarise it simply yet, to the point.
THESE WOMEN ARE ALL IDIOTS.
And… To think they DIDN’T even have ENOUGH SENSE to join forces when they had the opportunity & CLIP his nuts.
Now that his karma has landed him right where HE BELONGS…
I think the odds are PRETTY GOOD he’ll wind up being Bubba’s NEW BITCH & wait till HE BRANDS YOU Keith & Ms. Mack DON’T you dare feel left out you bad-ass, you, because I assure you there will be a BIG BAD UGLY dike awaiting whose even MORE of a BAD-ASS & who waiting to get matching jail tatt’s to mark HER property… LMAO! ENJOY!
KR, depending on how generous Clare still feels, maybe she’ll be kind enough to take out stock in both Crisco & Preparation H because, YOU’RE definitely going to NEED them BOTH. BAHAHAHA!
And…To Clare, & the rest of the FILTH. It doesn’t matter what you did or DIDN’T have growing up. At a certain age, WE ALL KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG.
KARMA bitch slaps HARD.
Nxians are not smart enough to realize how easy they make it to figure out they are Nxians.
But they did get the memo about “data”.
If we’re going to put Allison’s words under this much of a microscope, how about taking her allocution at face value? She said she was lost and now understands that following Keith was a mistake. After hearing dozens of women basically say they thought Keith was this brilliant humanitarian, and now understand that he’s just a conman, why is it so hard to believe Allison when she is basically saying the same thing?
Sadistic sex slave master is as sadistic sex slave master does.
There’s a difference between being lost and being willing to collaborate and carry out ‘orders’ from a higher source that are fundamentally inhumane. Being lost isn’t a leave from one’s morality and it sure doesn’t empower illegal actions. I don’t think it’s hard to believe that Allison believed what she was saying at the time and now sees the error of her ways but it doesn’t excuse her culpability from the things she did to other people in service of a person or an ideal.
Most atrocities committed throughout history were done in service of ideals or a figureheard. Often both.
We can feel compassion for Allison as a person who lost their way and compromised themselves to craven ends because she lacked the grit and fortitude to resist being taken in. She is traumatized but much of that trauma is self-inflicted and that difference needs to be recognized.
But I feel more compassion ultimately for all the people she terrorized, scarred, and traumatized who didn’t have any real power or choice in what was done with them.
If Allison avoids prison, it’s because she’s a white, rich woman in the American legal system. She is better advantaged to survive the process than a woman of color with no connections or financial resources. That’s going to count more in her favor than any display of remorse.
But she absolutely deserves punishment. Absolutely.
You’re saying that Allison understood, while she was in DOS, that the orders she was carrying out were “fundamentally inhumane”. That is a huge assumption.
All the crap Keith did to legitimize his status as the smartest man in the world and this great ethicist and having all these patents was done so that his followers would trust him and his abilities. He claimed that he had the power to heal sexual trauma by “working with” someone. Allison bought this, just like a lot of other people. When she told Jaye that Keith could heal her trauma from childhood, it’s because she thought he could.
Same with the branding. He came up with this whole philosophy about how women are incapable of commitment, hence the need for lifetime vows. Allison bought into this. So did other women. I heard Nicki Clyne say something to the effect of women aren’t good at commitment in an interview the other day. She still believes his teachings even now.
My point is that Allison’s allocution wasn’t “I’ve done terrible things please forgive me.” It was “Keith Raniere is not who I thought he was.” It’s also not a coincidence that Allison and others pleaded guilty almost immediately after Keith was charged with child porn. That seems like that was what finally shattered the illusion.
Side point: no clue about Allison, but I remain completely lost how anyone on earth could have fallen for that crap.
Anonymous at 12:47
I think it is because she clearly took such pleasure in hurting others. Not all masters did. Some very reluctantly gave out punishments. I believe Mack has a sadistic side of her personality that Raniere set free. For instance, some Nazis committed atrocities as ordered by Hitler while others performed sadistic experiments and reveled in the killing. It has to be in the person to start.
I also believe Mack is insincere. Note how she is treated far better by Raniere and the DOS-8 than Lauren. She acted her way through her plea allocution because she knew that she would easily have been found guilty after a trial. It was a self-serving move made by a calculating and manipulative woman.
Would you care to share some evidence of her “clearly taking pleasure in hurting others?”
Read the trial transcripts, particularly the testimonies of Nicole and Jaye. It jumps off of the page. And India’s comments from her documentary. It jumps off of the screen.
From the information that we have, no other master tortured her slaves quite like Mack. I am sorry this truth bothers you.
I don’t mean to suggest I think she should get off with no punishment. She was cruel to Nicole, and should be held accountable for that first and foremost. I have read Nicole’s testimony, and I have also read other things that suggested that she and Allison fought a lot while DOS was going on, that Nicole challenged her authority in some way, and that Allison may have been jealous of Nicole because Keith was spending a lot of time with her. It sounds like Nicole was the primary target of Allison’s anger/abuse.
My issue is with blanket statements like “she clearly took such pleasure in hurting others”. The vast majority of what I’ve heard about has been between Allison and Nicole. I read that Jaye mentioned Allison telling her that Keith could cure her sexual trauma, which made Jaye incredibly upset. Like I said previously, I suspect Allison honestly thought he could. I don’t think that was intended as abuse toward Jaye.
As far as India’s documentary, she nearly got indicted for her own actions, and part of the documentary is about making her look as blameless as possible, so I take it with a grain of salt. India didn’t defect until well after Keith’s arrest.
Her apology is rather meager and contains only the minimum to pass as an apology. She only did what was necessary, what she was advised to do, or what her lawyers or family advised her to do. Perhaps she came up with it herself because anything else would have had a negative impact on her sentence, or it was a requirement of her plea deal.
I agree her apology was short, but it was primarily a speech directed at the judge. I don’t think Nicole or Jaye were in the room. She will have a chance to address them directly at her sentencing, and presumably will give a longer and more personal apology.
I believe my “blanket” statement is justified. And it is my opinion. It appears you are somewhat connected to Mack. We will have to agree to disagree.
Also, regardless of what you think of India’s statements, Mack pimped her out for money. Her text to Raniere is proof that she is quite cold-hearted.
Again, yes the email you mentioned was the evidence used to charge Allison with sex trafficking. No it doesn’t prove she is cold-hearted. If that’s your opinion fine, but your opinion isn’t proof.
Raniere held collateral over her head just like he did with the rest of the women. He had the power to destroy her life if he wanted. Something I’m guessing seduced left out. Allison is branded with Keith’s initials just like the rest of the women, and was (very likely) abused by Keith the same way a lot of the women who’ve spoken out about Keith were. On top of the calorie and sleep deprivation that had all of DOS unable to think critically very well. In case you can’t tell, I think the lion’s share of the blame should go to Keith.
Also, again I want to point out that Keith presented sex with him as a form of therapy (which is crazy, but these women were starved to the point of not thinking clearly). Allison bought this, and so did India. Your narrative is that Allison stands out as evil, and what I’m saying is that you aren’t seeing how much work Keith put into breaking these women down emotionally. Not just Allison btw. I’m talking about all the women in his circle. I think they all deserve leniency.
And no, I have never met Allison and I’m not connected with her. I could make the same arguments for why Lauren S. deserves leniency.
Anonymous at 10:14.
Not to beat a dead horse, but you do sound like a confederate.
And you sound like a clown who watched a documentary on something and now think you’re an expert
Anonymous at 1:44
I knew you were a confederate!
If you are not, you would also be a clown who watched a documentary and thinks she’s an expert. You gave yourself away!
How arrogant of you to think your opinion carries more weight and is more valid than mine or others on FR.
You actually sound like a DOS-8!
anonymous at 1:44
I should make myself more clear. Your arrogance sounds like the DOS-8. I think you were in DOS and are either Allison or a friend of Allison from DOS.
For those who may be reading this quite boring exchange, Raniere taught his DOS women to be confederates who would advocate for other members of DOS without others knowing they had a connection to those members. He believed this made their opinion more powerful since it was coming from someone who had no bias. This sounds like anonymous to me.
The reason I think you were in DOS is that you, like the DOS-8, are incapable of accepting any else’s opinion if it differs from your own. But you are not in the NXIVM bubble anymore where everyone must believe the same thing and if anyone dares to express a different opinion, they are forced to take EMs until they fall in line. This is the real world. People will have opinions that differ from yours. You cannot have a tantrum and call people names like a child when someone does not agree with you. Well, actually you can but I do not think you will be well-received by others.
So Allison, Allison’s DOS friend, since you seem so desperate to have the last word, go at it!
Ok, now I’m just laughing at what you wrote. If you want to think I was a member of DOS, go ahead. I’m not even a woman lol.
Anonymous at 9:23
Oh, so you’re saying you’re just some clown who is obsessed with Allison Mack and watched a documentary and now thinks he’s an expert. Ok, that fits too.
There are serial killers who murder in the name of “helping”. Nurses in assisted living. So-called “mercy killers”.
If you ask their loved ones or law enforcement, none of them really care if their “intent was good”.
Could someone involved enlighten us as to who decides when a woman has become ‘badass’? What are the criteria of ‘badassery’? Since the women took a wow to be a slave for life, at what point can they make a decision of their own that is not sanctioned by their masters, all the way up to the top, KR?
Any thought or action not consistent with what KR’s demands would have resulted in endless EMs, gaslighting, playing one against the other, punishments, paddling, all ‘sold’ to them as being ‘for your own good’, ‘you want it’, ‘it’s good for the community’, ‘be strong’ etc. Or, in KR’s own subtle terminology he disclosed in his latest ramblings, trust-tested. “But I do have a mind of my own, don’t I, Vanguard?” “Of course you do, pet. I made quite sure of that”.
Anonymous at 8:55 a.m
One of my favourite comments ever.
And considering we all only get one life, when were the ” bad-ass ” women in perpetual training going to start theirs?
40? 50? 60 years old?
For giggles, let us buy into this DOS garbage as having any merit. It was an all-consuming pursuit. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. Endless “slave pod ” meetings. No time for anything else. “Symbolic collar” worn all the time. And then you must keep it secret. So, no outside close friends. Estranged from family. No true intimacy with a partner.
When you finally achieved “bad-assery,” did one get their collateral returned?
Why wasn’t Clare in DOS? Did she not deserve “bad-ass” status? Too “bad-ass ” already?
So many questions!
“a cage in a dungeon was planned,” that’s how it goes with narcissism. The weirdness just keeps getting weirder. Had he been given another year, the cages and dungeons would have eventually been used and, ultimately, made the front pages too.
Allison had pedophilia charges in the first legal procedure that was filed. She scaped It god knows how. But is really intresting how the charges where about explotation of a minor or abuse. Also.raniere. that actually just had.one at the end of the day, the pictures of Camila. Cafritz the 1 Allison was used to pimp Girls for Raniere and get abortions fast to keep his name clean.
Noe.in the zaratini tapes Emiliano recognize that theres a woman that trafficked.children in dos and in Nxivm. No one investigate these, theres no the slightless move from.the law. Allison was an actress, and It supouse to be in Nxivm.after Kristen kreuk. Let her in.right? I know actrecess, and some are money Fame hungry prostitutes that compete for the pennis of some Producer. Specially if these Guy is súper rich and the ticket to be more powerfull than others. She was sadistic but she also seem to know more things than the public knows. First she was very Direct in the video when she Talks with Raniere and says ” can you treat me ,like can you pop my cherry on these tecniques” por.something like that.
I mean people said that kreuk and Raniere where fucking, and we all know that people compare both of them un that shitty show smallville, for looks right? So Cafritz died , and Allison took place. Fast she becames a pimp, fine with torture woman. She had that long dress, in her ceremony. She said to Nicole that she was Happy to use her to find her sexuality. And of.course she has other historys of pedophilia like the Frank report story about her. I think her colaterall was also like that right? Somethings about rapping kids? Her family is bizarre, some will.say protective in a sick way. Cafritz , Ghislaine or.the bronfmans all have signs of.abuse, maybe even sexual.pedophilia abuse. And a history with that. Also rosa Laura , that his father was close to salinas father from.manny years.
According to Cathy o Brien , salinas was close to Bush and chaney , that where in a satanic cult according to her. Maybe Emiliano had his first encounter with a ritual when he was a child. But no , Allison was a grown Up, she knew about pain, Mayen she was shallow, maybe she stupid, but that dosnt excuze her of.anything. Mayen she didnt knew what she was doing, maybe she is a victim and a social product. But she understand enough to be locked Up in aplace where she can no longer hurt others, until she besos herself
I guess MRUR is saying that actress Allison was jealous that Kreuk was the higher status star on Smallville, then jealous again that Kreuk was fucking Ranieri (MRUR says) so when Kreuk left and Cafritz died, Allison eagerly took both their places–in Raniere’s bed and as his pimp.
MRUR says “he knows actresses” so we should believe him, right?
Why the hell is this post written so terribly while the one written here by the same person is actually clearly readable: https://frankreport.com/2021/03/04/part-1-clare-bronfman-files-appeal-of-81-month-draconian-sentence/#comment-162611.
What was the point of pretending like you couldn’t write this much better?
The pedophilia charge was the same as the one alleged and in the end, it was achieved that Raniere’s co-defendants jumped off the boat and that charge was based on the photographs of Camila they found on Keith’s computers because the prosecutors used an accusation Rico all the defendants would be affected by the same charge, but a different accusation was never presented to the possession of the photos of Camila or their abuse at the hands of Keith.
Let’s not mince words or pull punches.
Allison Mack is as full of herself as her mentor, Keith Allen Raniere, is full of himself.
In the same way that Keith Raniere is a disgrace to males, Allison Mack is a disgrace to females.
Few men would treat women as brutally and violently as Allison Mack did.
Allison Mack’s reprehensible behavior displays deep-seated misogyny that goes well beyond the malignant influence of Keith Raniere.
Moreover, Allison Mack’s eagerness to fabricate false charges against people, including her own father, shows that Allison Mack is a dangerous pathological liar.
From the video of her first meeting with Raniere – where Allison Mack gushes about “popping her cherry” – Mack displays an eagerness to follow Raniere without question.
And along the way, Allison Mack displayed a self-centered arrogance that is as outrageous as Raniere’s.
Allison Mack produced a series of videos titled “Ask Allison: You Asked, I Answered.”
Exactly why would any young woman seek the advice of an egotistical self-centered pimp like Allison Mack?
Most young women do well enough on their own without a self-serving grifter like Allison Mack mucking up their lives.
Allison Mack’s experiences in Gender Studies classes at Long Beach Community College and UC Berkeley demonstrate that most young women are well aware of her fraudulent dog and pony show.
It’s all about Allison.
More prestige, plunder, and power for Allison Mack.
Allison Mack is as phony as a three-dollar bill.
And for females, Allison Mack is as predatory as Keith Raniere.
Allison Mack and Keith Raniere are like matching salt and pepper shakers.
Good article! I happen to agree with *most* of what you say here, Shadow. However, I am mostly happy to see that you are actually on topic and didn’t say ‘Biden’ a single time in your comment! 😉
I think Allison enjoyed her role as Master a little too much. But I also think she was under the influence of KR a little too deeply and couldn’t get herself out.
I’m really convinced that you hate Allison for something that predates DOS. Did she turn you down or something?
I hate hypocrisy.
I hate the ministers and priests who use their position to abuse children.
Allison Mack preached female empowerment while torturing and blackmailing women.
A third man has accused Barack Obama’s friend Father Michael Pfleger of sexual abuse.
3rd Man Accuses Pfleger Of Sexual Abuse
Another accuser has come forward with allegations against activist priest Rev. Michael Pfleger.
CHICAGO, IL — A third man has come forward with sexual abuse allegations against a Chicago priest who has gained widespread acclaim for his activism, saying he felt he owes it to two brothers who have faced criticism for accusing the priest of abusing them decades ago when they were teens.
The 59-year-old man alleges in an affidavit shared late Tuesday with church officials that the Rev. Michael Pfleger once grabbed his crotch over his clothes in the priest’s bedroom area at St. Sabina Church in the summer of 1979 as the then 18-year-old accuser pretended to sleep.
Although he wasn’t a minor at the time, the man said he did not consent to the sexual contact with Pfleger, whom he said he met about three years earlier and considered a trusted mentor and friend.
The affidavit also alleges that he and Pfleger often drank alcohol and smoked pot together, beginning when the man was 15 or 16 and within years of the priest’s ordination.
Pfleger emphatically denies the man’s allegations, his attorneys, James Figliulo and Michael Monico, said late Tuesday. They characterized the affidavit’s release as an attempt “to keep the story alive” in the media.]
https://patch.com/illinois/chicago/3rd-man-accuses-pfleger-sexual-abuse
By the way Father Pfleger’s attorney Michael Monico is one of the top criminal defense attorneys in Chicago.
I hate pedophiles. They are gross!
Look at this pic of Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama standing with a convicted pedophile:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Donald+Trump+with+pedophiles&prmd=niv&sxsrf=ALeKk03lu9W3ThTx7rOTBGIIVWxuI1H7Kw:1614956285862&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj07vv9tJnvAhVokuAKHeFWC3cQ_AUoAnoECAQQAg&biw=487&bih=840&dpr=2#imgrc=GRUUDQS29J78MM
You forgot to post the photo of Trump with Jeffrey Epstein.
Trump kicked Epstein out of the Mar de Lago Club when he harassed a waitress. Bill Clinton flew 26 times to Epstein’s island, Trump never flew there.
“This she did for the sake of the women.”
This could be the funniest line you’ve ever written here so far. Subjectively speaking, naturellement.
In what comedy of horrors? “This she did for the sake of the women.”
Hoo haaaaaa! Lightning. By gum, that is a killer. Thanks for ‘splainin.
Do you duel? I’m small, but fast.
More shall be coming. Hotcha
Allison Mack did it for the good of Allison Mack.
Allison, look forward to the next 40 years. They will be over sooner than you think. With good behavior, it’s only 36 years.
Actually, if Allison did get sentenced to 40 years — and I personally don’t think her sentence will be that harsh — she would be out in 34 years.
Did Raniere enjoy it?
Was Raniere a “hybrid” too? Neither all evil nor all good? Did part of him really want to improve society and help people?
These are rhetorical questions of course. I don’t care a flying f*ck what he intended, or about his possible good side.
Same goes for Mack.
They’re both felons. Both of them branded and blackmailed women. They’re both liars. They’re both racketeers. He was in charge and she was his loyal lieutenant. For years. She wasn’t “misled”, she was in on the scam- for years. She recruited for him (sex trafficking), she made the lie believable (that DOS was “women’s only”). The branding was done in her living room.
Branded with his and hers initials (look at the image Frank posted and tell me AM isn’t there with KR)
In her living room.
She got paid for all this. She profited from this criminal enterprise. For extortion and sex trafficking and fraudulent BS classes.
I believe women and men should be treated equally. That includes sentencing in criminal court. She was an integral part of Raniere’s criminal organization, she was central to its operation. He was top dog and got 120 years. Mack should get less, but it should still be a staggering amount.
It was not a serious fraternity, because the purpose it was supposed to serve was not the one presented to these recruited women. It was clear from the outset, and Allison Mack knew it, that this fraternity was intended to serve the sexual desires and gratification of Keith Raniere, as well as her own, through the means of deception and sexual blackmail.
Allison Mack most certainly enjoined “it” on some level and she is also a victim.
The judge has a tough call to make.
****
Yes, Shadow, I do feel sorry for the victims.
Entangling victimization in this is difficult. The one thing I keep my eye on the ball about is who had meaningful choices and who didn’t in this morality play. She’s a victim but I tend to view her as a victim by dint of her own self-infliction.
She gave up a career, her youth, and ultimately her freedom for the favor of a man.
She could have left at any point, even at perceived great cost but those costs were ultimately all things should could have gotten back: her wealth, a career, the favor of people who are worth seeking, even if the embarrassing things she disclosed as collatoral were used against her.
I think the reality is that most people would have been baffled but ultimately sympathetic, once the full scope of why these things were suddenly out there. Nothing for her was ever so life threatening or unsafe that leaving wasn’t a real option, despite whatever narrative she told herself.
Any women who hasn’t been branded with Keith Raniere’s initials hates herself and all women, but we’re too sexist as a a society to admit this.
Yes, because nothing “screams” feminism and female empowerment more than having a permanent brand seared into a woman’s skin next to her cooch with the initials of a man (hidden to most) to signify her slavery to him.
If this was a serious fraternity (which it probably was but we’re too sexist to conceptualize this), then yes maybe she enjoyed helping women become stronger
You clearly believe DOS served a good purpose. To make women stronger.
Please elaborate on how you think excessive dieting, being pressured to provide pictures they didn’t want to give, being forced to ask permission for basic necessities like eating and sleeping, being ordered to have sex with someone they didn’t want to, being inspected for certain bodily criteria, and more heinous punishments made anyone stronger.
Please explain it to us since clearly we are not seeing it and, so far, none of the NXIVM women still in the pro-Keith camp are able to explain it either.
Nicki, look outside your own beliefs!
Have you thought about the fact that two people can experience the same thing and come away with two different perspectives and feelings of said experience?
Example:
Two people can go rock climbing for the first time; one finds a new passion and the other finds climbing terrifying.
That doesn’t even really matter as far as the DOS story is concerned. These kinds of subjective experiences weren’t used to determine the illegality of the actions committed by the alleged perpetrators.
That’s the problem with these NXIVM dead-enders and their so-called “logic”. Their leader was convicted due to crimes committed as ascertained from long-existing criteria used to determine the violation of written law(s), not due to subjective like or dislike of alleged victim experiences in the group, or hate of him and his lifestyle choices.
Anonymous March 3, 11:50am-
My point was to Nicki, and her perspective that the women were fine with everything until The NY Times article and law enforcement got involved.
She believes the other DOS women felt the way she did, up until the point the public and law enforcement became involved.
Nicki Clyne sincerely believes the other women DOS only feel like victims because society told the women they are victims.
My intention was not to be philosophical or legally technical.
I was merely trying to convey to Nicki Clyne that some people may feel differently than she does.
I didn’t get that interpretation from Clyne’s comment but that is a valid one. It’s also one where if that was what Clyne intended to say, then I agree with it.
Now I only have the documentaries to go on but the best I can tell there were many women branded over the period of months. Not a one said a word or complained…until whatshisname was informed by his wife of the branding. He, in turn, reacted as one would expect and informed the other men who also reacted accordingly which also then seemed to cause their female branded significant others to react in a way to match their outrage. Really watching that part of the documentaries felt like a man going “my woman!”, “no! she is my woman” and the women going “uh…I am his woman and I agree, this branding is wrong!” That led to getting it revealed on Frank Report which then led to other women refusing to do it and coming forward with their own stories of how they didn’t want the branding or did (if you’re Nicki).
Just going by that presented timeline, at no point did any of it ever feel like the branded women independently, without outside force, come to a negative conclusion on the branding by themselves. They may have had doubts and concerns but no real action took place until external forces acted on them.
The net result is going just by the timeline, there is a real credible argument to make that “the other DOS women felt the way [Clyne] did, up until the point the public and law enforcement became involved.” Only I would replace “law enforcement” with “until their significant other got involved.”
Pen Station – I agree. That is exactly what Nicki appears to believe. Sadly, most of DOS felt trapped by their collateral and were unable to speak out about the brand until they had numbers on their side. To say that they wanted it because they did not complain before the branding was exposed is to miss an integral point: the women believed they were in DOS for life and had no right to speak out against any order from their master. It is not that their husbands saved them, as erasend claims, but rather that there is power in numbers. His opinion overlooks the entire purpose of DOS, as well. I think you are right on point.
Mixed results at best in “becoming stronger”.
Even in the instances where a woman claims DOS helped her, the empirical evidence tells otherwise.
Was it the goal of these women to end up with no family? No career? Scarred? With an eating disorder? A criminal record? Broke? A ruined reputation? Sexually blackmailed? With HPV?
If so, then yes, many succeeded.