Nxivm Is Toast – Can It Be Restored?

By AnonyMaker

Nxivm is Toast

I think NXIVM is toast in the US.

A few diehards may carry on, but it will be virtually impossible to recruit anyone to any vestige that an internet search would show as being connected to Raniere and his depredations.

Some true believers in the “tech” (a term that Scientology also uses) may go on to start new groups, but most of what NXIVM used and taught is recycled from groups, movements and teaching previous to them, so any offshoots will likely pick different aspects to focus on and diverge very significantly.

The interesting question, is what happens in Mexico.

I think that part of NXIVM’s allure down there, was that it was a US thing, and so the ruin of its reputation here will reduce its cachet there, particularly among the sort of internationally-oriented elites that it relied on. So I suspect that NXIVM itself in Mexico will disintegrate, except possibly for the small hard core, and most members with any remaining interest are likely to end up in some offshoot, or even just some other group.

Hard to Find Good in Nxivm

My perspective is that Ericksonian hypnosis and the NLP developed out of it, tend to be inherently manipulative tools especially when used in group settings, so I have trouble imagining someone really making something truly positive and beneficial out of them, much less anyone in the crowd that started off with MLMs like CBI [Raniere’s Consumer Buyline that preceded NXIVM] and then went down the ESP/NXIVM rathole.

CBI was shut down in the mid 1990s for being an illegal pyramid scheme, and by that time Raniere was committing statutory rape, so I think he’s been a criminal all along.

Keith Alan Raniere had an MLM called Consumers’ Buyline prior to Nxivm which was closed down by various Attorneys General based on allegations it was a pyramid scheme.

ESP seems to have gotten worse over time as those who joined it out of idealism slowly got sucked into justifying crimes – including feeding Raniere’s predilection for young women – as a necessary means to the end of supporting the “mission,” and in the end even Raniere’s depravity seems to have descended to new lows with what he did in DOS

Nancy Salzman seems to have some talents and skills that could be used for good, but from accounts she has a rather manipulative bent, so while I think that she might have what it would have taken to salvage something better from NXIVM and keep some of the followers, I wouldn’t expect it to be free of some level excess control and other cult-like elements.

I’d look to someone who was involved with ESP/NXIVM early on, and then left because of philosophical and ethical disagreements with what was being done. But if there was someone like that interested and able to create a more positively oriented group, they’d have already done so. As I think we’re seeing on multiple levels, anyone who got deeply involved in NXIVM is fundamentally compromised.

The most positive take on NLP that I’m aware of is the work of Steve and Connirae Andreas, including the books Heart of the Mind and Core Transformation Process – and I actually worked with them briefly. But they never exactly formed a community that I’m aware of, and their group training work is pretty low key, which may be telling in and of itself.

If someone has some take on what might be done “legitimately,” to bring back the teachings of Nxivm – I’d be interested to see it outlined at least briefly.

***

Who Pays Raniere’s Appeal?

Maybe the lawyers expect that Keith Raniere can pay for his appeal out of Pam Cafritz’ estate, or his share of Clare Bronfman’s island.

Wakaya Island. Clare Bronfman, Keith Raniere and Alejandro Betancourt reportedly own this island under a company called ACK.

Or perhaps once they’ve been paid millions of dollars at full rate for a case, they’re willing to see a basic appeal through at the risk of not getting paid much further; and here, do something that might shake loose some money that they could then grab a share of.

There are all sorts of possibilities that we could speculate about, and no real evidence for any of them.

Clare Bronfman Wants Education?

I do wonder if the accounts of Clare wanting to pursue further education, indicate that she’s starting to think on her own and go different directions are true.

Once people are out of the hothouse environment of a high control group or cult, their allegiance and interest often start to wane pretty quickly. Nancy Salzman is probably more and more blaming Raniere for ruining everything (I’ve heard rumblings about that, and have a personal source of information to bolster it), and perhaps others are souring on him as well as they look back on things and face their fate.

If history is any guide we’re almost certain to be surprised at what was actually going on in a couple of individual cases, so again who knows in any one case.

Clare Bronfman wants more education she says. 

Clare Bronfman, for one, may be facing the fact that she’s gone from being carefree wealthy, to being very restricted for her, in what she can spend money on, since most of her available assets outside of old trust funds, have either been lost or are now tied up. Probably gone are the days when she could just buy a horse farm for her amusement – or sink tens of millions into an endeavor in an attempt to bolster her imagined reputation as a “humanitarian.”

She could end up something like this:

Huguette Clark
American philanthropist
“Huguette Marcelle Clark was an American heiress and philanthropist, who became well known again late in life as a recluse, living in hospitals for more than 20 years while her various mansions remained unoccupied.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguette_Clark

(It’s a truly bizarre story; she was born of an affair between her father, described by Mark Twain as among the most awful men who had ever lived, and a young housemaid).

Huguette Clark (crop).png
Huguette_Clark

Need More on Vancouver Scene

Mark Hildreth, Kristin Kreuk and Allison Mack were three prominent members of Nxivm who were actors filming in Vancouver.

From what I have heard some say here, Mark Hildreth actually recruited more people into NXIVM than Kreuk – including Kreuk herself. I never even heard of any of these people before, but on what basis do you assume that Kreuk was the most famous Vancouver member? Hildreth apparently wielded more influence within the community, and then of course there was Edmondson who ran the Vancouver scene and did the most recruiting of all.

And yes, we know that Kreuk is the first person who pops into some people’s minds. Continually, ad nauseum.

I’d rather hear more about Hildreth, Kendra Voth and others to truly put the Vancouver scene in perspective – as well as to understand the role of Mack, who was both an outsider and an insider, and had apparently dragged along her abusive and manipulative first boyfriend and fiancee who we know far too little about. If people spent half the time digging for information about figures like those, that they spewing obsessive word salad over Kreuk, we might actually know useful things that would help us better understand what went on.

 

 

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  • Then I received some more confusing messages from my friend. The woman upstairs, my neighbor, came by while he and the repairman were waiting outside to go in. Danielle would ride up on a bike whenever he went to the condo. This time she was a little late and the neighbor from upstairs started to give them an earful. They’re having sex parties in there, the neighbor told them. https://tinyurl.com/yxggjew8

  • People are already lined up to revive NXIVM under another name.

    It will be more like Scientology and stick to self-help programs for a while.
    Maybe it will even seek religious status.
    If marijuana is legalized it might promote the weed as a holy sacrament and a handy money making tool.

    Who will fight over the NXIVM carcass?

    The Bronfmans

    The Salzmans

    The Mexican elite

    Mark Vicente and Karen Unterreiner

    Whoever has the most money will win the bulk of the carcass.
    And the diligent, industrious Nicki Clyne will try to get in on the winning side.

    • Do you have any evidence for that?

      So far as I can see, there is a small, and probably dwindling, core of diehards that apparently doesn’t dare do anything publicly. They almost certainly have plans and dreams, but that doesn’t mean those will come to fruition.

      The history of groups like this is that once the organizational structure is disrupted and the spell is broken, people tend to drift off and either get involved in things that appear new and exciting again, or finally realize that gurus and groups are traps, and get on with life on their own – serial cult-hopper Vicente seems as if he may be at that point, for instance.

      There are reports that much of the Mexican elite are disaffected – and the Monterey center closed.

      The remnants need to be watched, certainly, but I’d be more concerned about newer high control groups and cults that are up and coming – and perhaps attracting former NXIVM adherents. It would be very interesting if we could get some better information about both what is going on with those who remain loyalists of some sort, and also what people who have become disaffected are turning to instead.

      When Scientology experienced a lot of disruption in the early 1980s as an emerging new leadership jockied for power when Hubbard was fading but not even dead, large numbers of people became disaffected and left, and many of them formed several new groups of different types. None of those lasted more than a couple of years, because none had quite the right structures of attraction and control, or as charismatic a leader.

      We know that it’s not about the “tech” these groups have. They thrive, when they do, on complex mixes of other factors that are hard to duplicate, including the influence of a leader who is typically both charismatic enough to attract people, and ruthless enough keep them spellbound.

  • I had no idea what NLP is, so I looked it up. Neuro-Linguistic Programming is a product of the New-Age human potential movement, created in 1970s California by two men who were, among other things, devotees of author of woo Carlos Castaneda– yes, the shaman guy. NLP is pseudoscience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming The Wikipedia article is rich in footnotes and references to articles in peer reviewed scientific articles; the pseudoscience evaluation is not just mine or the Wikipedia author’s, but is the scientific consensus. NLP is literally a textbook example of pseudoscience since it has been used as one in a 2008 Psychology text.

    “The last thirty years of research have simply shown that NLP is bunk.” –Steven Novella, M.D. http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html The theory behind it is bunk, and the practice of NLP is ineffectual. This according to the neurologists and linguists who have looked into it.

    Neuro-linguistic programming is not mind control. It is not possible to program people’s minds, neither one’s own nor anyone else’s. NLP is snake-oil.

    For more entertaining reading on the NLP scam, see http://donaldclarkplanb.blogspot.com/2006/11/nlp-trainings-shameful-fraudulent-cult.html

    • While I’ve bitten my typing fingers and laughed as others have correctly called you an idiot, I now can’t help myself from doing the same.
      – As I insinuated after your post that said hypnosis wasn’t a real thing – uh, wrong.
      – As to NLP being make believe and not being anything that works – uh, wrong.
      – As to the pattern of commenters calling you out for blatant incorrect shit you post – you are chicken shit yourself for never replying.
      – As to me wasting my time on a blowhard who admits he didn’t know what NLP was until 5 minutes ago – jokes on me.

      • He certainly is an empty suit blowhard. Parlato gives fools like him and assmaker as well as shadow boy a platform to spew their lunacy. Any credible use this blog had really has gone into the shitter

    • NLP is particularly rooted in Ericksonian hypnosis (Nancy Salzman studied both).

      It does advance the use of suggestion, and covert or conversational hypnosis, in ways that can be surprisingly effective on susceptible individuals, particularly when amplified with other social influence techniques. Suggestion and covert hypnosis are used in Scientology, possibly due to its founder Hubbard having had early connections to Erickson, and the use of those techniques in conjunction with socio-psychological manipulation is one of the reasons that is is possibly the mostly highly controlling group that exists, doing enormous damage to members and frequently getting them to behave in contravention to their best interests.

      Just because NLP has turned out not to be an effective therapy, the prime aspect that has been researched, does not mean that it is a technique completely without some potential power. I wrote a response to your previous comment about hypnosis that had a number of relevant links or quotes, that was either lost or delayed. Here’s an example that is sensational but illustrative:

      Derren Tricks Shop Keepers To Let Him Pay With Paper
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy75GtKsOAw

      That’s real, not just a setup with plants, involving actual phenomenon that criminals sometimes exploit:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7309947.stm
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11274801/Hypnotist-thief-puts-shopkeeper-in-trance-before-robbing-him.html
      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/woman-hypnotized-into-giving-money-boston-chinatown_n_1496227

      But Castaneda was more a charlatan than a shaman.

      p.s. The whole subject of suggestion and hypnosis is fraught and complex, particularly when it comes to its use in high control groups or cults (though it’s worth noting that medical hypnosis is a real thing, and it can be as effective as drugs in alleviating pain, see for instance https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/hypnosis/about/pac-20394405 and https://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/01/hypnosis). I’ll write more after I see whether my previous comment finally appears or has to be re-created.

      Here’s a bit more of a nuanced perspective on NLP and the state of research:

      “Determining the effectiveness of NLP is challenging for several reasons.

      NLP has not been subject to the same standard of scientific rigor as more established therapies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT.

      The lack of formal regulation and NLP’s commercial value mean that claims of its effectiveness can be anecdotal or supplied by an NLP provider. NLP providers will have a financial interest in the success of NLP, so their evidence is difficult to use.

      Furthermore, scientific research on NLP has produced mixed results.

      Some studies have found benefits associated with NLP. For example, a study published in the journal Counselling and Psychotherapy Research found psychotherapy patients had improved psychological symptoms and life quality after having NLP compared to a control group.

      However, a review published in The British Journal of General Practice of 10 available studies on NLP was less favorable.

      It concluded there was little evidence for the effectiveness of NLP in treating health-related conditions, including anxiety disorders, weight management, and substance misuse. This was due to the limited amount and quality of the research studies that were available, rather than evidence that showed NLP did not work.

      In 2014, a report by the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technology in Health found no clinical evidence for the effectiveness of NLP in the treatment of PTSD, GAD, or depression.

      However, a further research review published in 2015 did find NLP therapy to have a positive impact on individuals with social or psychological problems, although the authors said more investigation was needed.”

      https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320368.php

    • Was it ever not a cult and a dictatorship – just less so, or less obviously so, early on? It seems to me that it was always Raniere, a couple of his lifetime bisexual pedophilia-friendly sister wives and enablers, and then a larger harem of similar women that evolved over time, including some polyamory-tolerant ‘girlfriends’ who came and went, engaged in deceptive recruiting, and fraudulent and criminal activity of one type or another.

      And wasn’t it toast after the Forbes article of 2003 in which Edgar Bronfman called it “a cult,” following on earlier pieces by Rick Ross’ Cult Education Institute? After that ESP could no longer actually recruit successful executives, and it was rebranded as NXIVM in Raniere’s sly reference to an ancient type of debt bondage so prone to abuse – particularly sexual – that the Romans abolished it, increasingly relying on offering more levels of courses to a shrinking number of dedicated followers.

      I don’t know what your situation is so this is not intended as a person response, but I do want to note that it’s a common phenomenon that people who join high control groups or cults are often left with the impression that things went after they joined or after they left, when the dysfunction and abuse can typically be traced to the group’s beginnings and the leaders’ origins. That’s similar to the phenomenon in which former participants imagine the “good” in the group when they were in.

  • I heard the initial courses were good, but no, I never took one.

    But I also read that those initial courses were the start of reprogramming, and constituted cult like brainwashing from the getgo.

    Ditch it. Read a book in the self help aisle instead.

    • I asked the clerk in our local bookstore where the self help books were. She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.

    • There are also reputable programs like Toastmasters and Dale Carnegie that provide the same sorts of training in business and people skills, without the baggage.

      Meditation can provide many of the same sorts of benefits.

      A bit of talk therapy may be what some people need, but somehow it’s often hard to get people to commit resources to that, yet they will end up spending huge amounts of money and inordinate amounts of time on culty courses.

  • Hypnosis… hmmm. It can use some debunking https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201301/the-truth-about-hypnosis
    “Contrary to popular belief, people under hypnosis are in total control of themselves and would never do anything they would normally find highly objectionable. Also, it’s a fact that not everyone is susceptible to hypnosis. Some people seem to possess a trait called “hypnotizability” that, like other traits, varies greatly among individuals”

    Hypnosis has been likened to a placebo by Professor Irving Kirsch.

    It sounds like borderline woo to me. Suggestible people can be induced to think they have been hypnotized. It “works” in the same way sugar pills work.

    Whatever, hypnosis is certainly not any kind of mind-control.

    • Are you the only one who didn’t have a friend pulled up on stage for a hypnotist show? Or does your buddy typically enjoy dancing like Madonna in front of the whole school?

    • Acteon, the power of suggestion and hypnosis is still unsettled – and it isn’t mind control, at least not in the majority of individuals and situations.

      One of the things that I think is starting to be understood, is that the extended use of suggestive and hypnotic techniques over long periods of time, in combination with social pressures and other exploitation of cognitive biases, can resulting in a disturbing level of manipulation of susceptible individuals in high control groups.

      And thanks for the link, I appreciate references like that. It’s controversial, and I would offer a somewhat different expert view:

      “The promotion of confusing half-truths
      ….
      • “Hypnosis is safe with no unpleasant side effects”
      It is far from safe. It is an extremely powerful process and anything powerful can be used to do harm as well as good. Some people feel dizzy or uneasy, even after a relaxing session. They may feel psychologically unnerved about being ‘out of control’, particularly if they didn’t like the suggestions that were made to them. The literature is full of unpleasant or even dangerous effects that have been experienced after hypnosis. They include extreme fatigue; antisocial acting out; anxiety; panic attacks; attention deficit; body/self-image distortions; comprehension/concentration loss; confusion; impaired coping skills; delusional thinking; depression; depersonalisation; dizziness; fearfulness; headache; insomnia; irritability; impaired or distorted memory; nausea and vomiting; uncontrolled weeping and many, many more.
      ….
      • “A hypnotist cannot influence anyone to do anything against their will”
      We know simply by delving into the history of hypnosis of many examples of unwanted influence. There are many modern day incidents, some of which are recorded on CCTV cameras, such as cashiers being hypnotised and handing over the money in their tills because they were put into a trance state, or people being shocked into trance and robbed in the street. Indeed, we have only to think of advertisers and politicians and rabble-rousers and gurus – all artificially induce the REM state in the people they wish to influence.

      • “A person’s own ‘moral code’ will protect them from doing anything against their own best interests”
      There is no evidence that people can be relied upon not to do things against their own best interests and masses of evidence that they do so all the time. People’s moral codes are as flexible and changeable as the climate.”

      The uses and abuses of hypnosis
      https://www.hgi.org.uk/resources/delve-our-extensive-library/ethics/uses-and-abuses-hypnosis

      For anyone interested to see some impressive if not scary examples of suggestion and covert (or conversational) hypnosis at work, I recommend the videos of Darren Brown. Here’s one in which he pulls off a trick with cashiers similar to what is referenced in the quotes above – notice the use of chitchat to distract, and the injection of suggestions such as “take it, it’s fine” at just the right moment – and at the end he even gets a $4,500 ring from a jeweler:

      Derren Brown – “Paying with Paper”
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w

      http://derrenbrown.co.uk/

  • Nxivm is Toast:::No, it isn’t.
    I think NXIVM is toast in the US.:::I don’t.

    A few diehards may carry on, but it will be virtually impossible to recruit anyone to any vestige that an internet search would show as being connected to Raniere and his depredations.:::They rename it and throw Raniere under the bus. Simple.

    Some true believers in the “tech” (a term that Scientology also uses) may go on to start new groups, but most of what NXIVM used and taught is recycled from groups, movements and teaching previous to them, so any offshoots will likely pick different aspects to focus on and diverge very significantly.:::If it was recycled before, they can recycle it again.

    The interesting question, is what happens in Mexico.:::NXIVM grows in Mexico.

    I think that part of NXIVM’s allure down there, was that it was a US thing, and so the ruin of its reputation here will reduce its cachet there, particularly among the sort of internationally-oriented elites that it relied on.:::They have plenty of “superstars” of their own.

    So I suspect that NXIVM itself in Mexico will disintegrate, except possibly for the small hard core, and most members with any remaining interest are likely to end up in some offshoot, or even just some other group.:::I suspect you’re wrong, why reinvent the wheel if it’s rolling?

    Hard to Find Good in Nxivm:::It’s actually quite easy, they just took it too far.

    My perspective is that Ericksonian hypnosis and the NLP developed out of it, tend to be inherently manipulative tools especially when used in group settings, so I have trouble imagining someone really making something truly positive and beneficial out of them, much less anyone in the crowd that started off with MLMs like CBI [Raniere’s Consumer Buyline that preceded NXIVM] and then went down the ESP/NXIVM rathole.:::Who said the new NXIVM had to be positive and beneficial? MLM scam experience is very valuable in making the new NXIVM “successful.”

    CBI was shut down in the mid 1990s for being an illegal pyramid scheme, and by that time Raniere was committing statutory rape, so I think he’s been a criminal all along.:::Duh, did you have a point?

    Keith Alan Raniere had an MLM called Consumers’ Buyline prior to Nxivm which was closed down by various Attorneys General based on allegations it was a pyramid scheme.:::The allegations were true, and Raniere learned his MLM scam basics in Amway, before starting CBI. Do you even know what a pyramid scheme is? Definitions are important.

    ESP seems to have gotten worse over time as those who joined it out of idealism slowly got sucked into justifying crimes – including feeding Raniere’s predilection for young women – as a necessary means to the end of supporting the “mission,” and in the end even Raniere’s depravity seems to have descended to new lows with what he did in DOS:::It got worse because Raniere got limp and desperate for attention.

    Nancy Salzman seems to have some talents and skills that could be used for good, but from accounts she has a rather manipulative bent, so while I think that she might have what it would have taken to salvage something better from NXIVM and keep some of the followers, I wouldn’t expect it to be free of some level excess control and other cult-like elements.:::Ya think?

    I’d look to someone who was involved with ESP/NXIVM early on, and then left because of philosophical and ethical disagreements with what was being done. But if there was someone like that interested and able to create a more positively oriented group, they’d have already done so.:::No, they wouldn’t have, because they probably would have broken the NDA and gotten sued.

    As I think we’re seeing on multiple levels, anyone who got deeply involved in NXIVM is fundamentally compromised.:::Again, ya think?

    The most positive take on NLP that I’m aware of is the work of Steve and Connirae Andreas, including the books Heart of the Mind and Core Transformation Process – and I actually worked with them briefly.:::That’s nice, but not very specific.

    But they never exactly formed a community that I’m aware of, and their group training work is pretty low key, which may be telling in and of itself.:::This whole “community” talk is pure garbage. In terms of NXIVM, “community” is just another word for another “c” word – CULT.

    If someone has some take on what might be done “legitimately,” to bring back the teachings of Nxivm – I’d be interested to see it outlined at least briefly.:::I’m sure BB can help you with that. Or Kristin Crook(ed), or Edmondson, or Heldrith.

    ***

    Who Pays Raniere’s Appeal?:::Who cares?

    Maybe the lawyers expect that Keith Raniere can pay for his appeal out of Pam Cafritz’ estate, or his share of Clare Bronfman’s island.:::If he does, he will get an additional perjury/falsifying a legal document, as he stated he was essentially broke.

    Or perhaps once they’ve been paid millions of dollars at full rate for a case, they’re willing to see a basic appeal through at the risk of not getting paid much further; and here, do something that might shake loose some money that they could then grab a share of.:::That could be, I’m sure Raniere is quite entertaining.

    There are all sorts of possibilities that we could speculate about, and no real evidence for any of them.:::Just like most of this story.

    Clare Bronfman Wants Education?:::No, Clare doesn’t want to be in the prison GED classes with other inmates, she wants to be left alone as much as possible.

    I do wonder if the accounts of Clare wanting to pursue further education, indicate that she’s starting to think on her own and go different directions are true.:::I doubt that Clare has started to think, it’s too late for that, she’s 40, remember?

    Once people are out of the hothouse environment of a high control group or cult, their allegiance and interest often start to wane pretty quickly.:::Don’t bet on it with Bronfman and Salzman.

    Nancy Salzman is probably more and more blaming Raniere for ruining everything (I’ve heard rumblings about that, and have a personal source of information to bolster it), and perhaps others are souring on him as well as they look back on things and face their fate.:::I’ve “heard” Salzman is running for President. See how easy it is to make something up?

    If history is any guide we’re almost certain to be surprised at what was actually going on in a couple of individual cases, so again who knows in any one case.:::Duh.

    Clare Bronfman wants more education she says.:::See above.

    Clare Bronfman, for one, may be facing the fact that she’s gone from being carefree wealthy, to being very restricted for her, in what she can spend money on, since most of her available assets outside of old trust funds, have either been lost or are now tied up.:::Bronfman IS facing that fact, there is no “may be” about it.

    Probably gone are the days when she could just buy a horse farm for her amusement – or sink tens of millions into an endeavor in an attempt to bolster her imagined reputation as a “humanitarian.”:::She should be sinking 10s of miliions into various civil lawsuits.

    She could end up something like this::::I doubt that.

    Huguette Clark
    American philanthropist
    “Huguette Marcelle Clark was an American heiress and philanthropist, who became well known again late in life as a recluse, living in hospitals for more than 20 years while her various mansions remained unoccupied.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguette_Clark:::Clark wasn’t sued into oblivion.

    (It’s a truly bizarre story; she was born of an affair between her father, described by Mark Twain as among the most awful men who had ever lived, and a young housemaid).:::At least they have that in common.

    Need More on Vancouver Scene:::Do you think Frank can just squeeze his butt cheeks and crank out stories at will? No, he needs sources, perhaps your “personal source of information” can help.

    Mark Hildreth, Kristin Kreuk and Allison Mack were three prominent members of Nxivm who were actors filming in Vancouver.:::True statement.

    From what I have heard some say here, Mark Hildreth actually recruited more people into NXIVM than Kreuk – including Kreuk herself.:::Point?

    I never even heard of any of these people before, but on what basis do you assume that Kreuk was the most famous Vancouver member?:::Kristin Crook(ed) is not the most famous, jus the hottest.

    Hildreth apparently wielded more influence within the community, and then of course there was Edmondson who ran the Vancouver scene and did the most recruiting of all.:::Point?

    And yes, we know that Kreuk is the first person who pops into some people’s minds.:::So what? She’s hot.

    Continually, ad nauseum.:::Again, so what? She’s hot. Would you rather we think about Susan Dones? Kristin Crook(ed) is hot, Dones is not.

    I’d rather hear more about Hildreth, Kendra Voth and others to truly put the Vancouver scene in perspective – as well as to understand the role of Mack, who was both an outsider and an insider, and had apparently dragged along her abusive and manipulative first boyfriend and fiancee who we know far too little about.:::I’d rather you helped Frank obtain that information instead of putting out a sort of Christmas wish list.

    If people spent half the time digging for information about figures like those, that they spewing obsessive word salad over Kreuk, we might actually know useful things that would help us better understand what went on.:::Go for it and get the information, you are part of “people,” we,” and “us.”

    • I’ve watched and followed the history of high control groups or cults, and their offshoots, and it takes a special set of conditions for something to take off, particularly when there has been a real scandal or organizational collapse – Scientology, for instance, has had only one or two lasting minor derivative movements, and no direct schisms that have really been able to succeed, in over 70 years. NXIVM in the US doesn’t show any sign of finding a way to recover from a crushing blow to its reputation and leadership, and I doubt it will.

      In Mexico, it was recently reported that the Monterrey Nxivm Center closed. They don’t seem to be doing any better there.

      Plus NXIVM is further hampered because the government has seized all of their training materials and intellectual property rights. There may be copies in Mexico in particular, but they can’t be used publicly or to put on “intensives” like they used to, which were the prime activities of the group.

      But I wouldn’t suggest not being vigilant about the remnants of the group, either.

      And I actually just researched and put together a draft list, with specific details like stripe and sash, of the major players in Vancouver. Hopefully that will get posted soon. I think that I already do as much background research, and provide as much information and as many links, as about anyone here – I wish I could do more, but I actually have a real life, plus other hobbies I’d like to get back to devoting more time to.

        • And for some reason that doesn’t apply to you, too?

          I do take on bigger things. NXIVM, because it is a bit more contemporary phenomena that involves some newer elements like NLP, and because it is small, offers some particular opportunities for learning and study that have made it a worthwhile diversion, at least for a while.

          It’s also been interesting to get to engage with the conspiracy theorist mindset, which we have some of in my extended family that I don’t feel like I have the specific experience to handle as well as I would have like to have – so I’m getting up to speed. I hung out with some conspiracy theorists of a sort in my younger years, and became very familiar with the constructs of such theories – including how to whip them up myself – but that was in the context of sort of spacey, post-hippy and new agey fascination with things like the Illuminati (very similar to Raniere’s circle in Clifton Park in the 80s) that was always a bit irreverent and never taken seriously enough to really have to argue or debate over.

          • And you are so obsessed with him, that you imagine him even where he isn’t.

            Also, that fixation with images of other men masturbating, is something you might want to talk to a therapist about.

          • I agree. The “mad spanker” talk is about as interesting as Mr. Shadow’s fixation on Mack. If I were Frank, I wouldn’t post either one of those categories of comments unless the person used their real name.

          • I agree, less talk about spanky and more talk about Amway, Scott’s radio show and Kristen Kreuk’s innocence.

  • You can take any subject, and commoditize the teaching of it. And when you teach it some people will be helped.

    The problem with Nxivm as I see it is that someone was running a sexual exploitation network inside the overall structure of the organization, and because the units of operation were fundamentally silo’d no one knew what was happening in full. It’s a common technique used by many organizations with things to hide.

    If the principles work, yes it still has value. Kinda like the Karate Kid, same karate, same moves, one teacher abuses his students, another teacher raises his students. Informations the same, it’s how it’s used.

      • Pretty dumb comment when the Democrap party is basically a dumbed down Satanic cult. NXIVM is part of the swamp draining. Some political operatives that enabled NXIVM are going to face justice..

        • This is the perfect blog for your comments Boy Scout. Frank initially took the bait also for some consulting money from NXIUM. Did he return it?

      • It is going to be difficult for many Democrats running for re-election when prospective voters ask them what they have accomplished in the past 2-4 years, and their only answer will be “I tried to impeach the President”.

    • I’m pointing out that the fixation with Kreuk diverts attention from other key, or even more important figures like Voth, Hildreth (who unquestionably remained a loyal, active member), and so on – and not to mention Edmondson, who ran the whole Vancouver scene and apparently still has yet to fully come clean about what went on. Oh, and while checking on something I just ran across across a reference to Grace Park – yet another player of some import who it is easy to forget when the constant drumbeat Kreuk.

      Is it just a jilted fanboy fixation with Kreuk, or a deliberate attempt to keep her in the spotlight so others can scuttle away into the dark night?

    • Kreuk is not even involved in the case. Only mean girls and spermtalker can’t help themselves but drag her name into this circus.
      So sad.

      • Kristin Kreuk will always be a huge part of the NXIVM story you moron. Your sad emotional ass licking is pathetic. Are you a sad soy boy loser or ugly chick? Or are you just another SultanOfSpank alias? The subject of your infatuation has been criticized for legitimate reasons. The subject of your infatuation helped build up the cult, defended it from criticism and made zero effort to make a difference. She was neither naive nor ignorant to what NXIVM was up to, long before DOS. Her name was connected to several bad things. She even publicly lied about leaving. Go masturbate in the corner then cry a few more tears you weird crazy creep. Your sad comments don’t change facts.

  • Yep, I think you’re right. Mexico is primed for the NXIVM empire to grow. Fine by me. Keep it there. But, they have the internet too.

  • ESP/NXIVM was KEITH. It wasn’t the tech. It sold Keith. Guiness Book Keith. Piano, judo, sprinting, businessman Keith. Keith is now gone. Everyone realizes NXIVM was a scam. NXIVM is Elvis Patterson.

    NLP, Ericksonian, Scientology, MLMs are not gone. Offshoots of these will continue. But NLP, Ericsonian, Scientology, and MLMs are not NXIVM. Keith simply stole ideas from them to build his scam.

    • I agree that Raniere, his salesmanship and self-promotion, and his ability to build an MLM if not a cult, was the key factor in NXIVM.

      Nancy Salzman probably never would have gotten any further on her own, than giving small seminars on weekends when she wasn’t doing individual counseling sessions. I think that’s why she hitched herself to Raniere’s wagon, to be able to do something bigger than she could have on her own.

      • I say it was the influx of Bronfman money. Otherwise NXIVM was a money loser.
        Had the sisters not allowed their inheritance to be used by Keith, NXIVM’S reach, and subsequent harm, may have fizzled out.

        Does Frank, or anyone, know if Allison’s 8 million was put at Keith’s disposal? Or was it spent on NXIVM courses to dispel her disintegrations?

        As an aside, what the heck is a disintegeation anyway? Is it a named sin or some perceived transgression made up by this group?

    • Sadly, everyone does not realize its a scam.

      Barb Bouchey doesn’t. She says she wants to bring the “good” of NXIVM to us.

      Dr. Danielle Roberts is still spouting NXIVM vomit at the health fairs she attends.

      That guy who mistakenly claims NXIVM cured him of Tourette’s attempted to hold a “you pay $25 to attend a seminar in defense of NXIVM” still believes (his name escapes me at the moment. Had he done his homework, he would know some Tourette’s patients, like some asthma patients, get better as they age.)

      Clare has nowhere else to go where she would be the majordomo and her speech where she supposedly took responsibility? Examine it closely. She never does. Clare likes power, even stolen power, over others plus she’s just a mean, bitter woman. One can almost see her flying monkeys just waiting for her command.

      Just as there are survivors of David Koresh’s cult in Waco, Texas, who still believe, there are a goodly number who still revere Keith and believe NXIVM has merit.

      Social dynamics will out. It does in every cult.
      The Children of God still exists.
      The Unification Church still exists.
      The Way still exists
      12 Tribes still exist.
      JW’s still exist.
      And so on.
      Not as before, in their heydey, many of them survive and still recruit or are born into it.

      Hopefully, people will do their homework and avoid these totalitarian cults.

  • “From what I have heard some say here, Mark Hildreth actually recruited more people into NXIVM than Kreuk – including Kreuk herself.”

    Can you smell those beetle fumes? “AnonyMaker” is long-time Kristin Kreuk-stalker “SultanOfSix”. He is obsessed with shielding Kreuk from criticism and trying to throw attention elsewhere. It’s his deranged jihad. This beetlejuice-like creature actually went to Albany to rescue/kidnap his dream spank and make her his jihadi bride!

    • I guess that as for the blockheaded Mack apologist/s, I’m going to have to have to start putting together a bullet list to put things in perspective, in this case for the NXIVM Vancouver nexus; and hopefully it will put a damper on anyone posting about Kreuk in order to try to draw fire from others. This is a initial draft in rough order of role and importance, and I welcome any additions or corrections;

      * Sarah Edmondson – Established and ran Vancouver center, recruited actors and celebrities. Claims/reported recruited 2,000.
      * Mark Vicente – Ran center in California and co-founded Vancouver
      * Mark Hildreth – Orange Sash by 2011. Jness senior trainer/mentor. Co-leader of The Source. Recruited Nicole. Stayed in?
      * Lucas Roberts – Orange sash 2 stripes. Stayed in.
      * Leah Lim Mottishaw – Orange sash 1 stripe. Stayed in.
      * Allison Mack – Orange sash 1 stripe. Recruited by Kreuk. Co-leader of The Source. Stayed in.
      * Nicky Cline. Orange sash 1 stripe. Recruited by Edmondson. Stayed in.
      * Diane Lim – Yellow sash 3 stripes. Stayed in.
      * Kristen Kreuk – Yellow Sash 2 Stripes. Recruited by Hildreth. Co-founded GBD abortive recruiting effort.. “Left”/distanced 2012/3
      * Kendra Voth – “Coach” (Yellow sash?). Recruited by Kreuk. Co-founded GBD abortive recruiting effort. Reported/claimed left 2009
      * Grace Park – Yellow Sash. Recruited by Edmondson.
      * Chad Krowchuk – Recruited by Mack.

    • Someone who seemed to know, posted that about Hildreth the other day, and it seemed to fit with what I’d heard about his role – including that he stayed active long after others either quit or started backing away.

      I checked and Hildreth was an Orange Sash, while Kreuk just Yellow, which means he was a level more deeply involved and almost certainly recruited more people.

      Since it seems to be an ongoing point of contention, I started putting together a list of the major players in Vancouver and their ranks to get some factual perspective. Kreuk ended up surprisingly far down the pecking order, compared to people who rarely or almost never get mentioned here; I expect that a draft of my list should be posted soon for everyone to consider.

      One thing that should separate me from many of the commenters here, for anyone paying attention, is that I frequently cite verifiable facts, provide links to articles and sources, and even reference scholarly research and peer-reviewed scientific studies.

About Frank Parlato

About Frank Parlato

Frank Parlato is an investigative journalist.

His work has been cited in major publications all over the world, including The New York Times, The Daily Mail, VICE News, CNN, Fox News, Rolling Stone, People Magazine, and more.

Frank Report is dedicated to Frank's investigative journalism and the pursuit of truth.

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