Transcript of interview with Marc Agnifilo – and a few remarks in rebuttal to Raniere’s lawyer

You can watch the compelling video of Megyn Kelly interviewing Marc Agnifilo about Keith Raniere for NBC’s Dateline.

Here is the transcript – it is revealing.

Megyn Kelly: Let’s talk NXIVM – was this a cult?

Marc Agnifilo: There’s NXIVM and there is DOS and they’re two separate things. What you’re referring to is the government’s view of DOS from their initial complaint, which they seemed to have backed away from.

M: They’re not backing off from masters and slaves.

A: They are not backing off from masters and slaves. They were called masters and slaves. That’s what the women wanted to call them. DOS is a sorority, a group of women and it’s only women. The women of DOS has decided is ‘We’re going to have this group of women and we’re going have some extreme protocols. Admittedly. We are going to – some of us are going to brand ourselves.  Absolutely, 100 percent voluntarily. There’s really no meaningful suggestion anything to the contrary.

M: We’ve spoken with women who say that they were threatened. That their personal collateral would be used against them.

A: I look forward to cross-examining them. That’s why we’re having a public trial.

M: Many former members, including Susan Dones, Toni Natalie, Catherine Oxenberg – they say they feel threatened by NXIVM to this day.  Some say they fear for their lives. This is (a) common thread among people who have left this group. Why do they feel this way?

A: I would love to know. I don’t know why anyone could feel that they’re physically threatened by Keith Raniere or anyone in NXIVM. Keith Raniere is a remarkably – you might get mad at me for saying it – soft man.

M: Oh, please.

A: He is-

M:  I presume you mean physically.

A: He’s just soft. He is not a big, strong masculine force. He just isn’t. He is pretty much the exact opposite. He is not physically imposing in the least.

M: You know that there are ways of hurting somebody outside of physical violence.

A; Yes of course.

M: You can try to ruin their lives. You can try to release damaging information on them, maybe collateral you obtained from a relative of theirs; that’s the fear.

A: But it hasn’t happened. At some point, I say this to the government all the time: “Let’s live in reality. Let’s stop living in where ‘I’m afraid’, ‘I think’, ‘this might.”, Let’s live in what actually happened. No collateral has been released. Period.”

M. But you don’t need that to happen for there to be an actionable crime. The threat is good enough.

A: There is no threat. There was no threat. Keith never threatened anybody about anything and I defy any witness to get on the witness stand and say otherwise.

***

Here is the transcript again – with my comments in brackets and in bold.

Megyn Kelly: Let’s talk NXIVM – was this a cult?

Marc Agnifilo: There’s NXIVM and there is DOS and they’re two separate things. [That’s debatable] What you’re referring to is the government’s view of DOS from their initial complaint, which they seemed to have backed away from.

M: They’re not backing off from masters and slaves.

A: They are not backing off from masters and slaves. They were called masters and slaves. That’s what the women wanted to call them. [And also what Keith insisted they be called. He admits in texts that he is their master – the master of all the slaves – including his 7 First Line Slaves. He also admits that some of the women do not know he is their master.] DOS is a sorority, a group of women and it’s only women. [Except for one man – Keith]. The women of DOS had decided is ‘We’re going to have this group of women and we’re going have some extreme protocols. [And one of those extreme protocols is that the Front Line Slaves did not tell the lower level slaves, when they were suckering them into DOS, that Keith is the head of the master-slave group. They deceived them – and they did not tell the lower level slaves – and by design – via fraud – that Keith will see the collateral and they would be filmed during branding and they were not told that Keith would see their collateral.  That they would get collateral by deception at first and then afterward, they would be told they had to obey or their collateral could and would be released. In some cases, the women were actually threatened with the release of their collateral. And the women were not told that they would be ordered to have sex with creepy old Keith]. Admittedly. We are going to – some of us are going to brand ourselves. [And some of the women are going to be told it will be just a tattoo – until they find themselves ordered to be naked and {with the First Line Slaves holding collateral- blackmail-worthy material – held over the lower-level slaves if they disobey. In short, we lie to them to get their collateral in the first place and then we surprise them with the demand for more collateral, deceive them that Keith is secretly behind all this and then – with ample collateral we have enough on them to start coercing them} It was a slippery slope from voluntary [via deception ] to downright outright intimidation and coercion].  Absolutely, 100 percent voluntarily.’ There’s really no meaningful suggestion anything to the contrary.

M: We’ve spoken with women who say that they were threatened. That their personal collateral would be used against them.

A: I look forward to cross-examining them. That’s why we’re having a public trial.

M: Many former members, including Susan Dones, Toni Natalie, Catherine Oxenberg – they say they feel threatened by NXIVM to this day.  Some say they fear for their lives. This is (a) common thread among people who have left this group. Why do they feel this way?

A: I would love to know. I don’t know why anyone could feel that they’re physically threatened by Keith Raniere [I don’t think Megyn is talking about Keith actually going over to their house and beating them up] or anyone in NXIVM. Keith Raniere is a remarkably – you might get mad at me for saying it – soft man.

M: Oh, please.

A: He is-

M:  I presume you mean physically.

A: He’s just soft [Would you say flaccid?] He is not a big, strong masculine force. [ I thought he was East Coast Judo Champion].  He just isn’t. He is pretty much the exact opposite. He is not physically imposing in the least. [But he has no problem trying to lure women to Mexico to falsely imprison them, or forcing a woman to remain in a room for 18 months because she wanted to have a boyfriend, or tell a woman to run headlong into a tree. He was physically imposing to a 12-year-old girl – who ran away from him. Maybe Megyn should have asked him about rape – statutory or forcible. Sure, Keith may not be physically imposing – neither was Michael Corleone – but Keith knew how to intimidate. Keith could frighten women – with one cross-eyed look. He was not intimidating the women with the threat he would beat them up – but rather would do something horrible to them.]

M: You know that there are ways of hurting somebody outside of physical violence.

A; Yes of course.

M: You can try to ruin their lives. You can try to release damaging information on them, maybe collateral you obtained from a relative of theirs; that’s the fear.

A: But it hasn’t happened. At some point, I say this to the government all the time: “Let’s live in reality. Let’s stop living in where ‘I’m afraid’, ‘I think’, ‘this might.”, Let’s live in what actually happened. No collateral has been released. Period.”

M. But you don’t need that to happen for there to be an actionable crime. The threat is good enough.

A: There is no threat. There was no threat. Keith never threatened anybody about anything and I defy any witness to get on the witness stand and say otherwise. [I can just hear Keith saying, “Let them see what kind of a person I am. I’m not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching… they’ll see. They’ll see and they’ll know, and they’ll say, ‘Why, Vanguard wouldn’t even harm a fly…”

“He is not a big, strong masculine force.’  

Frank Parlato