A relatively new commenter, Alison, has a skeptical view of the prosecution of Keith Raniere. She is not defending Raniere’s conduct but maintains a view that is different from most readers: That the prosecution might have overreached.
That doesn’t mean Raniere is a good guy. It is possible Raniere is a criminal and the prosecution still violated his due process rights.
Because of her contrarian view, some readers have assumed she might be Nicki Clyne. Of course, Alison should be able to express different thoughts without being accused of being in on the effort to get Raniere a new trial.
I do not think Alison is Nicki, since I have communicated with Alison by email. I have also spoken to Nicki, who says she has never commented on Frank Report. I believe that is true.
Before we get to Alison’s view, I note that some people have said that Eduardo’s article, Justice Demands a New Trial for Raniere! is misogynistic. Of particular offense was his use of the words “sensitive plants.”
He comment was:
The [Raniere] defense arguments… that all witnesses were adult women who consented to everything they did – were shut down again and again by the judge…. The truth is these were adult women who made adult decisions and then, at the prosecution’s urging, they reverted to childhood and cried “we are weak, little, sensitive plants.”
“This whole thing needs sunlight.
“I have said this again and again: Switch the genders. If this were a group of men who chose to get branded and give collateral, this would never have gone to trial.”
When I asked Eduardo about the comment, he said, “When it comes to law and the media I treat women to the same standard as men, until they tell me they want to be treated as babies. Then, they are always babies. But what I won’t agree to is that they are equal to men when it benefits them and then babies when it benefits them. Same with men. I would call men ‘sensitive plants’ if they behaved the same way.”
Let’s hear Alison’s view on the Asunsolo article. She begins by giving an alternate view of collateral:
By Alison
I think Eduardo has made some very good points here.
Collateral
If someone pulls a gun on me and asks for my money, I may consent to give it to them. What if you gave the gun to someone you completely trusted and said, “Please threaten to shoot me with this if I don’t finish filing my taxes/completing some other tedious chore today.”
Well, okay, you could still get them arrested for making threats with a deadly weapon if they followed through with the threat. (For the record, I don’t recommend using a loaded weapon as a motivational tool except for in a few special circumstances.)
But it’s my understanding that was the general rationale for the collateral; well, that and it was meant to help ensure secrecy, but guess what, they make men in groups like the Masons swear to secrecy with threats of painful repercussions if they break their oath.
Of course, the whole collateral thing had so much potential to go very wrong if someone joined who didn’t quite get it and actually became afraid to say “No” to anything. But I guess that’s why they reportedly had written contracts for members of DOS. But some people didn’t get around to signing them?
Other Points to Debate
OK, here goes. I’m going to imagine we’re having this discussion in the deliberation room of a mock jury for this case. Here is what I’d have to say to some of the other comments. Yeah, I’d probably be the juror everyone hates.
—Mocking the victims and calling them “weak, little sensitive plants” literally reduces them to not human.
My take is that Eduardo is saying that Judge Nicholas Garaufis is the person who seemed to be regarding the women as “weak, little sensitive plants” and insisted they are treated that way and not as the mature adult human beings that they are.
— It shows hate towards women overall.
Why? Because he doesn’t think they need to be treated like children in a courtroom when a man’s life is in the balance?
—Nicki exhibited similar strange, childish behavior when talking about Sarah Edmondson in the online interview.
I think she was trying (perhaps inelegantly) to get across the same thing as NYT writer Barry Meier when he wrote, “Several defectors in [The Vow] are Hollywood types comfortable around a camera and seem at times to be playing to it.”
—In Keith’s text to Camila, he says: “I think it would be good for you to own a fuck toy sex slave for me, that you could groom and use as a tool to pleasure me.
Ok, it’s been a few weeks since I read those texts so I’m a bit hazy… but that exchange seemed to be a jealousy-fueled one where Keith was saying hurtful things to try to make Cami feel similarly jealous by making her think he wanted to get some other women to be with 24/7 (implying he’d then have zero time to fit her in. So there!). I think it was an angry, petty argument between two people in a likely dysfunctional relationship, not a true demand for slave procurement.
—How Eduardo does not see this as Sex Trafficking is beyond me…
I thought I read in a transcript text somewhere that the woman involved, Nicole, had shared with others beforehand that she had a fantasy about that precise scenario. Is it outside the realm of possibility that Keith was trying to go above-and-beyond to make her dream a reality? I don’t know her identity, but from all I’ve heard, she is really pretty and naturally thin, just Keith’s type. It’s possible he wanted to wow her to get her more engaged in the lifestyle, not traffic and traumatize her. Of course, it apparently backfired.
—The more extreme the crimes, the more likely a victim is to break down or be distraught while recounting those events, I would think.
Right. It’s to be expected. So why stop the cross-examination in its tracks because of it?
I don’t see that there is anything hateful toward women in Eduardo’s essay, and I think he makes good points about a potential lack of fairness from the judge. I have more to say about it, but out of time for now.
I’ll be back if I don’t get run out of here by torches and pitchforks before then.
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“—In Keith’s text to Camila, he says: “I think it would be good for you to own a fuck toy sex slave for me, that you could groom and use as a tool to pleasure me.
Ok, it’s been a few weeks since I read those texts so I’m a bit hazy… but that exchange seemed to be a jealousy-fueled one where Keith was saying hurtful things to try to make Cami feel similarly jealous by making her think he wanted to get some other women to be with 24/7 (implying he’d then have zero time to fit her in. So there!). I think it was an angry, petty argument between two people in a likely dysfunctional relationship, not a true demand for slave procurement.”
That is such a stretch I don’t know where to begin!! Seriously..Alison??!! Yes, you are hazy on this bit. Wow.
He had a female slavery pyramid scheme! Slaves were given assignments where they had to “seduce” him! He slept with multiple women and groomed underage girls for sex! He had one of his slave purchase cages and whips.
What would make you think he was just saying this to “make Camila jealous”?! Who are you? Some Keith Raniere deep mind reader? He said he wanted to own a fuck toy slave. Literally. Everything about his actions support that he would very likely actually want a sex toy slave. So when he texts one of his slaves that he wants another slave to be a fuck toy for him. What makes you think he wasn’t literal in his request? This wasn’t some ploy just to make Camila jealous… Maybe it did make her jealous– who knows? But Cami knew he slept with multiple other women already. And possibly he liked also making her jealous. But don’t imagine he didn’t mean what he said. That’s just weird.
I was curious too about and open to the possibly that he did not have a fair trial. I also think 120 years is excessive. But when you make comments like this, you lose all credibility.
The very concept that women need a man (Keith) to teach them how to be strong is as hilarious as it is offensive. The theory that a woman cried to be let out of testifying is really funny coming from his supporters who were too chicken to stand up for their allegedly wrongly accused dear friend and testify themselves. And what of Nicki’s beloved wife, Allison, who admitted guilt? Is she a liar too? Lastly, if Keith’s supporters believe their own “creating a more ethical world” community members are so easily manipulated and corrupt after years and years of all this “incredible training” and close, personal coaching from the Vanguard himself…Well, then the ‘tech” sucks. Like really, really sucks. Otherwise how could so many of its most dedicated practitioners (high ranking scarves and all) be such depraved criminals willing to lie under oath? For money? I want to get this part straight. They were sucked into a cult, sexually and emotionally abused, and in India’s case, lost all her money, and in Sarah’s case lost her job and the center she built up, they didn’t even know about all of the financial crimes, immigration crimes, money laundering, fraud, etc. But somehow, they knew with certainty they’d one day be part of a branded secret slave organization that would go to court years in the future and so on and so on? For such “rational” thinkers, that doesn’t make a speck of sense. Lose all your money, get blackmailed, get raped, waste years of your life… to make money? That you already had? That is one very strange and twisted path to “executive success”.
People, when you side with The brainwashing asshole misogynist that would love to have some pedophile that wanted to rule the world torturing woman out of prison, you have to check your morals and lógic. If you don’t know enough of these, well shut the fuck up. “It’s polítics” yeah like showing a video of how a woman gets mutilated is just polítics, ugh. They also lied? But Asunsolo shoots himself in his foot because he recognizes that Obama and the Virgin owner (not a dark joke, I mean the company, not the kids that Raniere used to rape as a Luciferian ritual) were in Nxivm, and one is connected to Epstein (Branson) and the other one to the Pizza Gate, so yeah polítics, dirty pedophile satanic polítics to be factual
I agree with Alison. My impression when reading it was that he was saying he sees women to be as strong as men. The court, on the other hand, does not. This is a huge problem that all women should be concerned about. It’s being certified by the highest courts that we are not seen as equal. Picture a man crying to get out of the line of questioning that could make or break your story. I mean Mark Vicente even tried and it didn’t work.
What about pedophilia? Did Rhiannon also lie? What about the deaths that aren’t investigated even now? What about showing snuff videos?
Pedophilia = bad
Suspicious deaths = bad
Showing snuff videos = bad
Unfair trial = bad
What is your point “Alison”?
None of that even suggests that Keith didn’t get a fair trial. I’m not saying he did or he didn’t…just think your comment is irrelevant. He wasn’t charged with pedophilia, murder, or with showing scary videos.
@Flowers: My post was in reply to this:
—”What about pedophilia? Did Rhiannon also lie? What about the deaths that aren’t investigated even now? What about showing snuff videos?”
I put my thoughts in a brief list because I’m tired of trying to say things like, “Hey guys, I really am against pedophilia, murder, and snuff videos, honest! But I’m just not convinced that Keith got a fair trial, and if he didn’t, that’s bad.”
It’s not even about Keith. It’s about wondering how many trials and convictions may have happened over the years and could still happen in the future that were potentially unfair, but nobody was paying attention because they weren’t high-profile cases like this one and, of course, no one wanted to hear anything that the convicted person had to say due to the heinous nature of the accusations (not even necessarily charges) against them. That’s all.
Alison
I got that you weren’t approving of Keith’s behavior, but I don’t believe you’ve presented specific reasons why you think Keith never recieved a fair trail, unless I missed those reasons.
All those other things, such as his pedophilia, are irrelevant and should have nothing to do with him receiving a fair trail or not. Those things shouldn’t influence the verdict, at least theoretically.
@Preciousplant
Thank you so much! At long last, I feel heard. You’ve said it better than I ever could.
You missed “Viva Executive Success” at the end! That’s the highlight of every article!
There was more than enough evidence to find KR guilty.
I came to this whole thing with an open mind – consensual BDSM activities are allowed in the US and here in the UK, people agree to be beaten every day for sexual pleasure, etc (although in the UK if it is too hard, it is unlawful so you simply cannot consent to some things – I genuinely do not think in the US or UK you could consent to a 30-minute branding of this kind whereas you could to a tattoo and most of the consensual whippings masochistic men go in for). Idiots get into cults all the time and most of that is lawful. People believe in all kinds of silly things even that women need “protecting” and big macho men are heroes (and what men wouldn’t like to hear that?)
What you often cannot do under the law is mislead people; e.g., this is a brand which is XYZ symbol when, in fact, it is KR initials; this will be a tattoo (when, in fact, it is a 30-minute brand that is worse than childbirth with no pain relief). DOS has nothing to do with KR (when, in fact, he is involved down to the last detail of making sure some kind of agreement to it is said out loud). KR is celibate (when, in fact, he is sleeping with women left right and centre). You can leave when you want when, in fact, your next 20 years will be ruined by litigation which is vexatious and an abuse of process. If you stay with me, you can have my child (and then you don’t and are now too old to have babies). Some of those cross the line into crimes.
If KR makes out he didn’t know about some things, I think the evidence points otherwise. Even if he did not, it should be like a board of directors – you have a duty to know what is going on under your watch.
The jury found precise crimes of which KR was guilty. He did much else probably a lot of financial stuff, all those immigration things where people came back and forth, probably hacking, probably unlawful surveillance, never mind taking all that money and losing £60m on the financial losses.
He thought he could rise above the legal system and do risky things that tend to get people into hot water – sex with young girls, having lots of women (that rarely goes well even if it might sound like male heaven). Had he just stuck to business coaching and kept away from women other than to have one wife in the usual way, he would be walking free now.l
I think there is validity in Asunsolo’s arguments which can be seen in the election issues, handling of COVID, and other crazy things happening in politics. It’s obvious to me that the whole system is rampant with bad apples, separate from Raniere’s situation.
I can’t take it anymore. I’m going to come out. It’s The Vow. I don’t dispute its content, it does reveal terrible facts. But… It smells like business to me. If you can, of course, do it. But where are the Mexican victims who remained anonymous because they don’t have the resources to make it a case. I would like to speak in favour of the minority, not criticise the film.
Yes It should be another trial. One that the worst crimes are actually judge, more press, a fair sentence to clare bronfman, Sara, Emiliano, Betancourt . Someone should investigate if Allison is a pedophile, like the original accusation said, Who was the child.trafficker that emiliano Talk about, kristin, Cafritz, Gina And the other suspicious deaths, the first line of slaves exept maybe Camila should be in jail, also.porter the mangele snuff doctor , Danielle Roberts, abby rockerfeller should be investigated just for.suporting Raniere and her family background , to the relationships with. Dutroux or.epstein to the mk.ultra. and the rothschilds for having bussines with the bronfmans . Rosa Laura should.go to jail for offering her daughter, that Dungeon investigated. So thanks Alison,.It should be a new trial,.the goverment deffinitley Will pass.throught the years to scrutiny and a very bad light, not because the misoginystic ignorant rationalization you say, but because definitly there are some loose ends that need to be fixed. Asunsolo and you share something, a capacity for negate reality that is very similar.to.a sociopath, when you Talk about the brand or the extortion you say “adults”, but the brain has Many mecanisms that even the army uses to mind control, where is hacia itslef , when is.traumatize.for.example . So do whatever you want,.but read.the whole trial, and similar cases and then you make a opinión, not just read some and project your own mind issues
If there were to be another trial and he gets the same or even more severe sentence, I will applaud that, if it is done right. I’m not a legal expert so for all I know this conviction/sentencing is rocksolid, but what I’m seeing from the point of view of a citizen gives me the heebie-jeebies about the US justice system.
I would add that somewhere on the Frank Report is the entire sentencing memorandum issued by the judge. The judge actually concedes certain of Raniere’s objections to the sentencing range proposed by the prosecution. It is extremely interesting and I think would be helpful to review in the context of how the trial was handled, rather than just assuming he was railroaded. The memorandum goes through and analyzes all the evidence presented at trial.
I would again question how Keith received such an unfair trial while being represented by one of the best defense attorneys in the United States.
—”I would add that somewhere on the Frank Report is the entire sentencing memorandum issued by the judge.”
Thanks, Nancy. I’ll look for it. I may have already read it, but I’m not 100% sure.
I have ambivalent feelings about Alison’s first sentences in the article. On the one hand, because when I came into contact with the subject, I first thought that the women involved in the NXIVM case were “adults”, they knew what they were doing. But when I got to know the story better, I knew and got into their situation. I have no doubt now what they have really been through. Women are more emotionally absorbed than men and are, therefore, more exposed to manipulative effect. The words “weak, sensitive plant” from Judge Garaufis are particularly kind and respectful of the female species, and I don’t think he said it with hurtful intent. In today’s world, many women still have this side, including myself. In addition, we can safely fill jobs, our company roles in which decisiveness and strength are needed. The two are not mutually exclusive. But inside, we can stay sensitive. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. In this case, but it could be something else. Raniere turned people (some are still even today), like meet around the skee.
Judge Garaufis did NOT say “weak, sensitive plants” regarding women – Eduardo Asunsolo said it. And I don’t think there was anything kind or respectful in him saying that at all. As a follower of Rainiere’s, he’s been through the Vanguard’s “turn misogyny around so it’s a good thing” training, and it shows in what he writes. My hope is that Asunsolo will also someday be able to free himself from Raniere’s warped ideas and be able to look at women (and men) as people.
Nomin, Judge Gaurufis did not utter the words “sensitive little plant.” That is Eduardo Asunsolo’s quote (prolly straight from Raniere’s mouth). Eduardo is accusing His Honorable Judge Gaurufis of TREATING the female witnesses LIKE “sensitive little plants” bc Gaurufis once excused Lauren Salzman from the stand when she became very emotional under cross-examination.
Although I personally put Lauren in the “goat” category amongst Keith’s herd or flock of farm animals, during Lauren’s testimony Keith was boring into her, animatedly passing notes to his lawyers, making a scene as much as Lauren was.
Maybe Lauren did turn on the waterworks to drown out, avoid getting caught in a lie or revealing too much, just as Clare (I believe) had a sudden, fainting spell at a most opportune moment. This is all within NXIVM’s manipulation playbook.
However, Mr. Agnifilo and his fellow Bronfman paid counselors, were apparently not at all opposed to dismissing Lauren and why, pray tell, did they not call Lauren back to continue nailing her on the cross once she composed herself and they composed their client(s)?
None of it had anything to do with “sexism” ruling the justice system and if it did they were both — Keith AND Lauren — playing it with the full support of NXIVM’s BRONFMAN PAID counsel who DID NOT RECALL Lauren to the stand to continue her testimony on the sensitive topic being examined.
My opinion is also influenced by Lauren’s mother, Nancy Salzman’s, allegedly horrified reaction to Lauren’s testimony and some facts that emerged therein that substantiated the sex trafficking charges, the UNDERAGE, YET UNCHARGED or prosecuted, sex trafficking charges where Camila was concerned.
Remember, at that point, they (NXIVM and it’s defense contractors) were confident Cami had been cowed clean out of sight under THEIR threat that she would be arrested for immigration fraud — ironically the same threat they constantly used to ‘toy’ with her and her sisters, her entire family, to begin with.
I know for a fact that NXIVM had a plan dating back to when my sister Gina was still alive (prior to 2002) to target immigrant girls from Mexico (or Canada, wherever) because they were more vulnerable, could not turn to law enforcement (as “Rhianon” did in 1993) without risking arrest due to their illegal status.
Camila, all the “illegals” — who were discouraged from maintaining their visas, their legal status — in the same way and for the same reason, I believe, US citizens were all discouraged from paying taxes, etc. — were put under that threat. It’s called “blackmail” aka “collateral.”
And, in Cami case, which was not a unique one, it led to psychotic breakdowns and suicide attempts when Cami achieved that state of “cognitive dissonance” Keith BOASTED he knew how to induce among his acolytes in NXIVM’s promotional videos following at least two successful NXIVM suicides including my sister’s.
At the time Gaurufis dismissed Lauren from the stand to recompose herself, how was he to know whether or not Lauren was on the brink of a psychotic breakdown — not uncommon among NXIANS being deliberately “broken” and rebuilt into sex toys — with Keith apparently pushing her self-destruct buttons from the Defense table — or whether she was playing at being the “sensitive little plant” able to bend the justice system to it’s bidding with some well-timed, tear drops?
Even “sensitive little plants” are innocent until proven guilty.
He comment was:? LOL
Try “His comment was” LOL
Be sure to thank me for the correction, like you always do (but not really). LOL
“Alison Many Names” is supposed to be a new poster? I honestly thought this was just Bangkok again, posting under yet another handle.
Most women would not condone misogyny, so Alison’s attitude supports the Bangkok theory.
Why did you choose the name “Alison”, Bangkok?
It’s definitely not Bangkok. Bangkok writes in broken English.
Alison didn’t call Frank any names, so it must not be Bangkok. LOL
— I honestly thought this was just Bangkok again, posting under yet another handle.
Who me? I’ve never been to Bangkok – and if anyone is saying they saw me there, I’d like to see them try to prove it.
Re “But I guess that’s why they reportedly had written contracts for members of DOS. But some people didn’t get around to signing them?”
If there were written contracts with DOS members, it was after they delivered blackmail material. Because that was the very prerequisite for learning anything about DOS and becoming a member.
Even if these contracts had been given and signed, they are legally inadmissible and, therefore, invalid from the outset. Nobody can make a contract that allows others to coerce you, blackmail you, or make you a (sex-)slave of another.
I think it would be more correct to say that the contracts – if, of course, they existed – would have been “unenforceable” rather than “inadmissible”.
Do you always have to go around correcting others? LOL
Should Frank ban Claviger? LOL
Alison,
The way you portray the collateral situation has, in my opinion, nothing to do with what happened. Nothing to do with reality.
The collateral was not given. The collateral was Demanded.
The initial blackmail (not collateral) was not demanded, it was made to look like something that it was not, and then the original and ongoing blackmail itself was used to continue to coerce subsequent blackmail. LOL
So is Alison suppose to be Allison Mack or is the theory that it’s a Nxivm follower?
Is it wrong that despite the years and all the news out about her now, I still have a crush on Allison Mack? I don’t think I would follow her into a cult but I would probably consider it.
Also, am I the only one that thinks Nicki Clyne and others are planning a NXIVM 2.0?
Dear erasend,
Why ask in the third person? Do you think Alison isn’t here to read your questions? Cause she is, Btw, you don’t follow someone into a cult. You get sucked in. Just playing. I’m not Allison Mack, sorry to disappoint, and the extra L offends me.
Why would the L offend you, both are common spellings of that first name.
Are you an ex or current follower of NXIVM? Important distinction. As some ex-Scientologists proved, you can grow to dislike the leader but still love the “teachings” of the cult itself, miss it, and want to return to that type of environment just minus the leader.
As for your argument on collateral being misunderstood by those that provided it…trust usually doesn’t require a “payment”. If it had existed, then Allison and co would not have had to ask for this payment of incredibly personal information that clearly, even at the time it was being asked for, was designed to be a Sword of Damocles to ensure silence. It’s no different than the e-meter nonsense of Scientology which is really to give them the ability to record sessions to guarantee silence. I keep using Scientology because all Raneire did was use their tactics with different titles for everything. Or to put it differently, if someone pulls a gun at you, and asks for my money, you are forced to only 2 decisions – potentially die or give up the money. Neither option is consensual as I do not have any real choice unless suicidal.
What truly amazes me, and this is often forgotten, is Raneire could have continued to enjoy his harem to this day if he had not just taken the step of branding. If did everything but the branding, he would probably be climbing off of India right now, satisfied with another day’s “work”. That one, completely unnecessary ego stroke, is what destroyed him. It also demonstrates the dangers of surrounding yourself only with sycophants. One of them should have advised him it was a step too far but like any cult leader, he forgot the key to maintaining the cult isn’t just control but having at least one voice pointing out where you’re about to make mistakes that end the cult.
@erasend
— Why would the L offend you, both are common spellings of that first name.
I was kidding around. It doesn’t really offend me at all.
—Are you an ex or current follower of NXIVM?
No I am not and never was.
I agree with you it seemed the branding was a major “misstep” (to put it mildly) that hastened the group’s demise.
Again I am sorry I opened this ridiculous can of worms by asking a question
Don’t kiss and make up, I was enjoying the cat fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za1XVgQhsJU LOL
@NiceGuy
—”I am sorry I opened this ridiculous can of worms by asking a question”
I’m not sure if you’re apologizing to me or to all Frank Report readers, but there’s certainly no need to apologize to me, NiceGuy.
It’s been an eye-opening experience because I have never been in a cult, have no desire to ever be in a cult — I haven’t even gone to hot yoga since the shutdown in March. Yet, when the words “cult” “indoctrination” and “brainwashing” are in the air…ya just can’t win. People are going to accuse you of being a cult operative if you disagree with them on just about anything when they’re in that mindset, and apparently there is no way to ever convince many people otherwise.
I realize this might make me sound even more like a mouthpiece for a cult, but I assure you, I am not.
I think it’d be more productive to shift to staying aware of “cult-like behaviors,” such as when a group isolates people from their families, etc. and not list “expresses opposing viewpoints” as a sign that someone is in a cult or has dark motives.
Asunsolo, thank God, is not a woman. Nor does he evince any attunement whatsoever regarding what it IS to be a woman. Blah blah blah. And even Siggy Freud died as the same old prevaricating, secretive, “masculinely” chauvinistic, messy, interfering and hypocritical horndog that he THOUGHT was oh-so workable, as a human with a penis. ANALYZE and therefore, control. Controlled confusion can be a lot of fun for awhile, but that Siggy man is very fortunate that he didn’t marry someone who was born to bust him, like I.
You may love me all that WE, if there is a “WE”, want, but EWE will never own me. Bah bah blah blah, baby. Nobody has a corner upon the consciousness of “the other.” Kindly get hip to it. Asap. Or buh-bye. Don’t call. Surprise! There’s no conquerability being offered. We are only equal counterparts designed to mesh beautifully. Through freedom, not through subjugation. If I surrender, if I decide to say yes or no, thank you, the decision is mine. As your decision, supposedly, is yours. So is mine.
It would have been fun, as well, to be one available to nag the shit out of Siggy. Bust his ass. Imagine watching his face go all red and mottled with fury! Hahaha. Mr. FUCKWIT! Do go and fuck the living hell out of your own wits. Oh never mind, U B deadish, according to most perceived limits, none of which you may sell to me. It is too late.
I say yeah yeah. There comes then a river of highly amused yet still intractably devoted and loving laughter. I do love you big babies. Ah, the hamstrung conditionality of humans! We watch the envelopes with nearly helpless attentiveness, charmed and attracted, while maintaining our divisive insensitivities about what is inside, the very contents of life.
And I say unto thee, so well-hung, ho ho hum. Yada yada.
And please, never behave! Enjoy all of the mysteries. Let’s experience this together. Why not? All is temporary here. This is the nature of chromosomes, to have a shelf-life and eventually, to vanish, in essence,, to transpose. The violets bloom with such gloriousness before disappearing, the same way.
Why be so perpetually rattled by the (temporary) housing of life itself? Things don’t have to be made so damned complicated. The feminine “receptacle” is inherently creative, just like the delivery men. We are all marvelous and fascinating creatures, born this way and so beautifully matched to seek some ineffable union together. Ineffable but not unfuckable! The older one gets, the funnier it all is. Only the entirety of our biological components is different and somehow complementary. Such is attraction, magnetic and like the tides. Remember?
So, huh? Of course I am emotional. That, however, doesn’t imply a lack of intelligence, nor does it indicate any degree of helplessness. Unless you expect me to understand or to give a hoot about lawn mowers, etc., which has never once been necessary. I have no interest in lawn mowers, you see. Too many of them are yucky, noisy, most of them are too heavy and outweigh me anyhow.
Everything that I am meant to care for would be missed, without all of my feelings being alive, as the nourishment, and that impetus itself is my inner guide. To love or not to love? Somebody has to feel it all. Or at least some of it. Otherwise there would be no way to take care of our children, who come with tender hearts and a lot of helplessness. Somebody has to care enough to be receptive to their needs and their feelings, their inner need to grow into independence. That receptivity is exactly how you become a mama, if you are so lucky, in the first place. (All rapes aside.) Relating. The freedom of interrelating is essential, or else there is no real interrelating. Completely relating to the beauties of the other is never happening through any subjugation. Never. Come on now.
Asunsolo, maybe go to India, child. I recommend it for you personally. Bring your brother(s), too. See everything that you can. Gather your variety of experiences, if your heart really feels called. Explore more of the simplicity and the complexity.
As an old (rather tree-like, with a straight, implacable spine) meditative fellow told me, nearly half of a century ago, “you can surrender to a tree. It does not matter. The surrendering is yours.” This is how come, if you meet “your” guru upon the road, both eventually and symbolically, you are going to kill him or her. But for now, just be allow yourself to be similar to Alfred E. Nueman, that classical mensch, and practice some “what, me worry ?” Get it on. You cannot nickel and dime your life away on trivialities or illusions and dream of transformative experience. Well, you can, but it will all be bupkus. Have you met Bupkus ? ‘Cause I have.
So trees, huh? Certainly. They rustle instead of hollering like parrots. Trees are usually so much more gracious and silently embracing, embraceable, than most humans over the age of, say, eight or nine. Unless the human is lucky enough to come from people who love life…as deeply as trees do.
Do you love your life, Asunsolo? Have you thought about loving life? Being adventurous, for the love of all that lives? Are you a happening? That would be delightful. Ahhhh. Screw with all of the definitions and find your own way. What is courage, eh?
I will be seventy later this month and ndisputably, feel around 16. Excited and turned on. Everything feels divine and unstoppably new, amazing. Viva!
Viva this marvel of spontaneous, yet ancient adventurousness, forever and ever.
Oops, it’s indisputable. Got it? Life is exciting. Butt, where the heck is mah secretary, that lazy cipher?
Out at the greyhound races again?
Nearly seventy revolutions around the sun is another wide-eyed cornucopia of experiencialities! Who can fail to love it? Who can be numb to it? Always fresh. Always new and endless, both as components of one full-bodied paradox, and life is, by nature, full of enthusiasm. There is never a boring moment. I love it.
Wow wow wow! Another amazing flow from Shivani. <3
I am not even kidding, you are slaying me like Czelaw Milosz. Shivani for poet laureate. Not exaggerating or just trying to be sweet.
I just want to make it clear that I am not “Alison,” no matter how many clues “she” drops apparently trying to fasten me to this site and and “her” secret identity.
Nor is she my underage, oedipal neighbor, stalking me as Frank and Nice Guy maintain “Bangkok” is.
Though I was, by sheer coincidence I presume, downing a Starbucks Nitrobrew at the same “she” so named herself as “Alison on Nitrobrew,“ etc. It’s a popular drink and I certainly wouldn’t want to make any paranoid or mystical presumptions over so very many coincidences that occur between FR and my ‘apparent’ reality.
And no matter how many times “Alison” quotes our Mother, the late Rose Pipino Hutchinson, or my late sister, Gina Hutchinson, or me, kinda. Our Mom was a very intelligent, educated person who enjoyed repeatedly referencing more obscure characters in history and literature.
Btw, is that the “bad Heidi” or the “good Heidi” that Kristin Keeffe is quoting to “Alison?”
Oh no, there I’ve gone and used Kristin’s name in vain again. Better get her a new computer, Frank, or a new Jeep to drive around in at your place. “Bad Heidi’s” at it again with her “Queen-like” ambitions! Why, she’ll take over the White House next!
Heidi, I promise you I am way too self-absorbed to stalk or harass anyone. The nitro brew was definitely a coincidence! I love the satisfying sound it makes when I open a can.
Heidi, for what it’s worth, I also thought that “Alison on caffeine” was probably the same person who has posted as Bangkok.
I find the choice of the name Alison to be a bit strange. Why choose a name that is so closely associated with a NXIVM member? For example, she could be Alice instead…
@ Flowers:
—”I find the choice of the name Alison to be a bit strange. Why choose a name that is so closely associated with a NXIVM member?”
Didn’t a reader with the handle “pea onyu” used to get accused all the time of being Nicki Clyne? In light of that, I’m skeptical that a different user name would change anyone’s suspicions about me.
You still didn’t explain why you chose to use the name. So many other names you could use, even if your real name does happen to be Alison ( which it probably isn’t.) So obviously you chose the name to draw attention to yourself.
Some readers thought the troll, Pea Onyu, was Nicki Clyne because she wrote in defense of NXIVM. Anyone who defends Keith is going to be accused of being a NXIVM member.
There is a hasty assumption in this comment, Flowers. “obviously you chose the name to draw attention to yourself.”
Why is that obvious? Allison Mack does not own the name Alison and the use of that name does not mean a commenter is trying to draw attention to herself via the name itself. It might be the commenter’s real name. And even if the commenter is trying to draw attention to herself, what’s wrong with that?
Why does anyone post comments anyway? To share ideas and make points and get attention. Personally, I value Alison’s comments. She is raising points that run counter to the official narrative and in the robust examination of the truth, that is essential.
By the way, she does not have to explain to anyone why she chose to use the name Alison.
Frank, you know exactly what I mean. Alison used the name of a very well-known nxivm member (although with one less L) and then wrote that she believed Keith did not receive a fair trail.
Obviously, the name was chosen for some reason, and it’s not hard to guess what Alison hopes to accomplish.
What is she hoping to accomplish?
I would tell you exactly what I hope to accomplish, but then it would foil my evil plan. Here’s a hint: It could have something to do with delivering payback to a certain interesting fellow but in a very creative way.
One of the historic tools of combat is to pay back enemies creatively, oftentimes by feigning friendship or neutrality and then strike once their guard is down.
I have been in many battles and I prefer declaring hostilities openly. I think it works better in the long run. I think whatever temporary advantage one gains from trickery, one loses in bravery, in that force or power that impels victory. For me, it was never vengeance, but victory in a fair fight that was the goal.
I often think Raniere employed creative payback on his enemies, some of whom had no idea they were his enemies. Some of them thought he loved them. But in the end, it availed him nothing.
I wholeheartedly agree with your points, Frank. Of course, I don’t have any plan, evil or otherwise, for anybody. Was a joke perhaps in bad taste. I’ve been having too much fun lately and getting carried away. But it’s soooo much fun. Even so, I think I’ll try to check myself before I wreck myself.
Defending Keith while using the name of a NXIVM member (even though the spelling is slightly different) gives the impression this was written by a former (or is if current?)
NXIVM member…especially when articles about Allison Mack were posted around the same time.
So, I’m saying that I think she intentionally chose the name for that reason.
Maybe Allie could have some fun while using another name. Pick a name, any name except for one similar to a former member.
Flowers, you may be right. Maybe Alison did select her moniker to be a reminder of Allison Mack – to cause angst and chaos.
But an alternate theory has arisen. I surmised the use of the name of Alison may be connected to Alison Doody, to which, after seeking out pictures of our Alison, I see she bears a striking resemblance to, so much so that reportedly people in her native Dublin come up to her on the street calling her Alison thinking she is Doody.
Still it is possible that she, though often called Alison because of Doody resemblance, deliberately kept the name to cause people on this website to be unsettled as she promotes edgy and heretical points of view regarding Raniere.
Despite her nefarious use of the name Alison, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Please try to rebut her points, despite her outrageous use of the name Alison.
That sounds like…well…a pile of doody, to be perfectly honest.
But maybe our Alison would consider using the name “AlisonLovesDoody” or something similar?
@Flowers:
—”So obviously you chose the name to draw attention to yourself.”
Okay, since you are clearly dying to know, and I am not a passive aggressive person, I’ll explain. I came up with my username when I was a complete newcomer to the Frank Report and had no idea how paranoid the atmosphere can get in the comments. By the time I clued into it, I was attached to my name. Bonded, even.
It is interesting that despite my use of the name Beverage “Alison,” the majority of readers who can be bothered to care what I have to say seem to think I am Nicki Clyne, not Allison Mack. What’s up with THAT?
—”Anyone who defends Keith is going to be accused of being a NXIVM member.”
So then what the h@ll does it matter what name I use here?
Another question: Why is nobody dragging Nancy Durkin over the coals?
—”But maybe our Alison would consider using the name “AlisonLovesDoody” or something similar?”
Not a bad idea. I had no clue who she is, but after viewing some pictures, I think I’m starting to develop a crush.
Alison Doody is definitely much hotter than Allison Mack, and Frank seems to like Ms. Doody, too, so I think a doody- inspired name might suit you.
I wouldn’t say that readers of this forum are paranoid; I think curious is a better adjective in this situation. Afterall, what do we have to be paranoid about?
Anyways, I wish Frank a Merry Christmas, (from my grinchy, mean and humourless self😉)…and I might check in here again after Christmas.
I think a lot of what you’re saying might align with what KAR eventually uses to appeal. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if Nicole had mentioned having kinky fantasies, but I also don’t really think it changes anything. If he does somehow get the sex trafficking charge tossed, I think the fbi would be ready to charge him with more.
I think the FBI won’t go after Raniere unless less than 40 years is left on his sentence. LOL
“If someone pulls a gun on me and asks for my money, I may consent to give it to them.” Alison
WTF?
No sane court will accept consent extracted at gun point.
Such consent is null and void.
@Shadowstate1958:
“If someone pulls a gun on me and asks for my money, I may consent to give it to them.”
Actually, I’m not the one who wrote that. Another reader did. I was responding to them that maybe it was more like asking someone you trust completely to provide you with some motivation via negative reinforcement, rather than getting caught in a stickup.
I did not make any assumption as to who Alison is.
The names are spelled differently.
In any event, any consent obtained by force, fraud or coercion is invalid.
Alison, regardless of everything I’ve written, I sympathize with you. I don’t know why, but I like to read the opposite reviews because it’s always thought-provoking.
“I think he tried (perhaps not in a talented way) to meet on the same thing as NYT writer Barry Meier when he wrote, “[The Vow] has a number of flawed Hollywood types comfortably surrounding the camera, and they seem to play with it at times”. For example, I’ve been thinking about this for several days, and you weren’t the first to moon.
@Nomin:
—” I like to read the opposite reviews because it’s always thought-provoking.”
So do I! 🙂
The interesting thing about men, is that they don’t want to tell about how they were abused. In a Swedish Christian sect, Knutby, men were sexually abused by the female leader, but they don’t want to tell about it without anonymity. I know several men who have been abused by homosexual leaders, but they won’t tell.
There will be no second trial. Raniere is done.
That may be ” your take” but it’s not what he said. ” they reverted to childhood and cried we are weak, sensitive little plants”. The ” they” in that sentence is the victims. Proceeding it is the even more offensive statement that these strong brave women were directed by prosecution to act this way. As if they were not honest. Not victims but just brainless female people pleasers doing what a more intelligent person directed them to do.
Come on! I have no pitchforks for you. Your opinion is that of one person. No more or less important than 1000’s of others. I do however find your points very subject to “interpretation”. And kinda boring. Have a great day.
@Call me al:
“Come on! I have no pitchforks for you.”
Okay, I’ll stop flattering myself.
“I do however find your points very subject to “interpretation”. And kinda boring.”
Of course they are subject to interpretation. It’s just some impressions I have. And I don’t think my “take” is especially original, which is part of my motivation for sharing it. I’ll bet a lot of people think the same way but haven’t gotten around to saying so, for whatever reasons.
“I’ll bet a lot of people think the same way but haven’t gotten around to saying so, for whatever reasons.”
I doubt it.
After giving this a lot of thought, I have to agree with Frank that Nicki Clyne is probably not me.
StillSippingAlison-
I am incredibly sorry for asking you that question. I understand you don’t want to hear anything I have to say or care if I apologize.
I enjoyed reading your different take and perspective because generally no one on the Frank Report, with any intelligence takes up the other side’s perspective.
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There is one philosophical question far greater in importance than the Nxivm story and all the players involved…and even Keith Raniere’s guilt or innocence.
How do we as a society decide when freewill ends and indoctrination begins? (My question is purely in regards to the Nxivm 5).
It a tricky thing when discussing the Nxivm five. Nxivm and Keith Raniere have been of the picture for about 2 years, yet the Nxivm 5 have stay true to their beliefs.
The Nxivm 5 have never been convicted for any crimes. They are all adults.
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Personally I believe Raniere is guilty and I feel incredible bad for the victims who were abused and blackmailed.
I am only focused in on the Nxivm 5. We all call them cult members, but are they?
***********
To my critics:
I’m asking a philosophical question. I am challenging my own beliefs in asking this question. I feel the same way L, AnonyMaker, Heidi Hutchinson, and everyone else who believes Raniere is an evil man.
I believe personally we should always question and challenge our beliefs. If our beliefs and values can not stand up self examination how valid are they?
I hope AllisonTea or AllisonCoffeeHigh sticks around.
I found Eduardo’s article abhorrent. I am merely speaking in regards to his and the others’ beliefs. Are they still brainwashed or should their beliefs viewed as being from a place of free will?
How do we as a society decide when freewill ends and indoctrination begins? ===> Society has already answered that question, you are responsible for your own actions, just ask Patty Hearst or other people in her position. LOL
I am struggling as to understand who Eduardo’s target audience is. There are people who still believe in Keith, who don’t need convincing and there are people totally opposed to him who wont be swayed.
There are people who don’t care for him but care for justice reform so they may be interested. There will be people just on the fence and not know what to believe and there may be former members of NXIVM who perhaps could still be convinced.
My irritation with Eduardo is his style and choice of words that I just don’t think will sit well with most people. He and the others still loyal seem to have an air of superiority and if anyone gets offended by their statements then they are looked down upon for not understanding due to not being in the position to have been enlightened with Keith’s profound teachings.
There are many people in this world who have valid points but shoot themselves in the foot by the way they come across. There must be a better way to spread a message that is clearly important to them without coming across with such condescension.
—air of superiority
They are an incredible SMUG group and do not understand why. It’s not like they have discovered a cure for cancer or discovered how the universe was created.
Side Note:
The big bang theory is just a theory.
That is the problem. Smug doesn’t get you heard. I think Sipping Alison should be the NXIVM 5’s spokesperson. She could get the message across a little more eloquently and not piss everyone off in the process.
eh – I’m still not convinced she is not a member of the NX5, i.e. already a spokesperson for them.
—I think Sipping Alison should be the NXIVM 5’s spokesperson. She could get the message across a little more eloquently and not piss everyone off in the process.
I don’t know about that, Natashka! Sincere thanks for the laugh, though. 🙂
Well, if they want some help, here is my first press release:
1. Statutory rape = BAD
2. Emotional abuse = BAD
3. Extortion = BAD
4. Vexatious litigation = BAD
5. Lynching = BAD
I think “sipping green tea Alison” should use a taste tester for any beverage she consumes in the presence of any current or former NXIANS or their incognito defense ‘contractors.’
Any “rats” about, Alison? Also, poison comes in many forms, there is for instance the mind-altering type — sometimes conveyed through hypnotic words…
Hey, Frank, I can move objects with my mind, too.
I can move your dick just by looking at it, I bet.
Or I could have someone call you in the middle of the night saying they saw Kristin Snyder alive in Tallahassee, FL and make you look like a fucking fool — if not completely off your rocker — dragging a film crew around the globe to locate the alleged midnight messenger.
I bet I could do something similar — like hire an aged Gina look-alike to follow Heidi around from town to town. There’s another win-win psyche out. Either Heidi tells people Gina’s still alive, like we’ve got Frank thinking Snyder is, or Heidi freaks out that someone’s trying to convince her of that possibility, or over stalking her (even while driving with her disabled son at his program) in general. Either way, it’s all a Bronfman contractor pay day. … N’cest Pas?
Btw, not true the Bronfman brothers did not ever finance NXIVM. (Per your – or was it Clav’s — little ‘ass lick’ to the bro’s made in another post.). Clare’s Bro, ayahuasca addict, Jeffrey B., contributed to Kirsten Gillibrand’s campaign in ‘08. But both he and Edgar Jr., not an addict but a pal of Hollywood mogul, David Geffen — in fact, didn’t you report they met recently? — generously donate in the $500,000 range — to the Republicons, as well, but rarely if ever to a specific candidate — before the curious ‘08 donation Jeffrey made to Gillibrand’s presidential ambitions, er, NY Senate seat campaign. Same year, btw, Clare illegally bundled the NX donations to Hillary Clinton when she was installed as NY’s Senator, I believe. Also, wasn’t Roger Stone within a Stone’s throw of Clare & Sarah (possibly Jeffrey’s) fortunes under KAR & Salzman’s complete control then and far more recently, too, IMHO.
My apologies to the actress who played old “Gina” in LA, Oxnard and Palm Springs. It was the acting, it was the script. You shouldn’t have asked me so many times to borrow my cell or help you with yours, stupid bitch! 😆
There will be no charging with a pitchfork from me I will just carry a torch! I jest. I generally have opposing views but Alison’s points, though differing from most, are well and respectfully written so I will read with interest.
If not Nicki, I still think it’s someone from that group. I think it was the style and wording that makes it sound like someone on the inside.