Vicente- Oxenberg Battle
There is a battle ongoing between India Oxenberg and Mark Vicente over how Vicente is portrayed in Starz’s TV four-part series, Seduced, Inside the Nxivm Cult. India is a co-producer and the main character in the documentary.
A different picture of Vicente emerges on HBO’s nine-part docuseries, The Vow, where Vicente is one of the main characters. On The Vow, Vicente is shown as a concerned and caring whistleblower, who realizes that Nxivm founder, Keith Raniere, a man he formerly admired, is criminally evil – and then bravely works with others, including myself, to take him down.
On India’s Seduced, Mark is portrayed prior to becoming a whistleblower. He is most definitely painted as an unsympathetic figure and it has caused a fairly heated controversy, most of it directed negatively at Mark, from a lot of people, many of whom are among the constantly growing legion of fans attracted to the Nxivm story.
The accusation against Mark, as depicted in Seduced, is that he manipulated India into repeatedly taking expensive Nxivm courses – and pushing her to remain close to the group – even when it was against her best interests, while, at the same time, she was prevented from rising in the company where she could have made some money.
India Benefited by Vicente’s Whistleblower Actions
Frank Report will take a closer look at this story in upcoming posts. Among other things, we will explore what role Vicente and others had in the takedown of the cult, including what they did to help India leave Nxivm and DOS, where she had become a branded slave of Allison Mack and Keith Raniere.
During the real battle – the one against Raniere – beginning in the summer of 2017, India loomed large because, though she was hostile to opponents of Raniere, her mother, Catherine Oxenberg, while trying to get India out, was working with Vicente, his wife, Bonnie Piesse, Sarah Edmondson, and myself to blow Nxivm to pieces.
India had no role in the takedown of the cult, other than being the incentive for Catherine’s maternal efforts to save her daughter. She did not leave the cult until after Raniere and Mack were arrested.
There is no doubt that had it not been for Bonnie and Mark Vicente, Catherine would not have been dragged into the fight. It was Bonnie who first told Catherine that India was branded – which is what started the chain of events that led to Catherine calling me and my exposing DOS, the cratering of the cult by that revelation, the NY Times story, the FBI investigation, the arrests, the trial, and the 120-year sentence for Keith Raniere.
For those who think Mark was not an important behind-the-scenes whistleblower, I will, in a future post, reveal his role in providing important information to the Frank Report, the New York Times, and the FBI.
He also gave Catherine support during a time when India cut off communications with her mother in favor of Raniere and Mack.
I can shed light on what happened during that initial period of the fight – the summer of 2017 – when Frank Report was the sole publication exposing DOS and Raniere – and that India was calling me a criminal in texts to her mother – for exposing Raniere and for the effect Frank Report was having on breaking up the cult.
I can shed light on the period after the FBI began its investigation and the strategic efforts taken to prevent India from getting arrested alongside Allison Mack. This was at the same time India, financed and encouraged by Clare Bronfman, was in discussions with a lawyer to sue her own mother.
India faced the real possibility of being arrested for her alleged crime of attempted sex trafficking of the DOS slave Jaye. India was described in the federal criminal information used to arrest Raniere as “co-conspirator #2.” Allison Mack was co-conspirator #1.
Mack was arrested. India was not. The reason she was not was due, in large part, to efforts made by Catherine, myself and Vicente, which I will demonstrate in a future post.
Whether India knows it or not, she owes a debt of gratitude not only to her mother, but to Bonnie Piesse, Sarah Edmondson, and Mark Vicente. And myself.
India’s Comeback
India is presently doing her best to be a trailblazer, a courageous young woman who, rather than hide in shame for her mistakes or what happened to her as a victim, is out there showing that one can make a comeback from even a colossal mistake in judgment or the most shameful or embarrassing circumstances and win respect for oneself.
Her brave stance really cannot be overestimated. Almost anyone else who was revealed in the worldwide media as a sex slave, branded and known to have given graphic and damning collateral, of which she still does now know where it is being held, would seek to hide and try to live it down. But India is trying to live it up – to get out there – and show the world how to make a comeback – revealing her mistakes, her victimization, and how one can stand up and take back your life, in your own name, without hiding or cowering.
It is a rare feat. A remarkable feat. And she is winning. Almost no one thinks of her as a played fool. Or even a weak or pathetic victim. She is now brave India Oxenberg. It is one of the best, the most epic comebacks I have ever seen.
DOS sex slave, turned victim, turned avenging heroine. Very good – but does Vicente need to be avenged?
Conflict Over How Vicente Treated India When She Was Still in Cult
In Seduced, India presents her view of the period before Vicente left Nxivm, when he was happily in Nxivm, and one of its leaders. It seems India sees Vicente as her first abuser, then Allison, and then Keith Raniere.
India now knows Keith Raniere is a monster but, prior to his arrest, she was deeply defensive of him. Vicente was the Nxivm leader in Los Angeles and her teacher in Nxivm. She claims he kept her in the cult long enough – and deeply immersed enough – to fall prey to Mack and Raniere.
Did Vicente cause this unhappy chapter in her life or was she a grown woman, an intelligent adult, who chose to be part of the Nxivm community and only later, all on her own, chose to join DOS and then experienced its horrors?
Is she infantilizing herself by claiming she was easy prey to Vicente’s manipulation? She was a woman whose family is wealthy and cultured; she is an intelligent woman herself. She entered the world of Nxivm when she was 19 and remained until she was in her mid-20s.
She was also one of the last to leave Raniere. She stayed loyal to him and Allison for months after they were arrested. At the time, she publicly claimed she was not a victim but was happy with her life.
Prior to Raniere’s arrest, India’s stepfather, Casper Van Diem told me that India’s mother, Catherine, not Raniere, was the real person who made India a victim by making her branding story public. At that time, India agreed with her stepdad. Now, she realizes that her mother helped save her.
And today, India sees herself as a victim not only of Raniere and Mack but also of Vicente.
I would have preferred not to wade into this story since I fought side by side with Vicente and India’s mother, but the issue has become public and Frank Report covers the entire Nxivm story.
There is no doubt that Vicente has been damaged by Starz’s Seduced. It is fair to take a look at whether this is justified or not.
Frank Report will have more on this story.
Frank Parlato 
Janine Morrison 
J.J. O'Hara 
Richard Luthmann 
Marie White 
Paul Serran
Please leave a comment: Your opinion is important to us!
A little late to this forum after having just finished “The Vow”, then “Seduced”. Good points are made in the Comments Section here, and I’ll just add: What a complex context to analyze and judge / opine about. Ideally, it would be the most believable for my tastes and values if Mark / Sarah / India showed consistent ( over and over and over ) contrition about their mistakes and abuses carried out In the Name of Vanguard ( vomit ). Given, Keith is the sickest f*#@. Granted.
Sarah at one point in a latter episode of “The Vow” made a comment about another woman ( Allison? ), paraphrased: “She did a lot of good things. She also did horrible things and should go to jail.” You didn’t, Sarah? If India’s details about Mark are correct, and it’s true that he made a lot of money off of pressuring others into courses, a coercion of sorts, then has he been continually upfront about the $$$ as well as expressing enduring humility over his enabling of the greater evils committed by Keith? How much of India’s work now is driven by sheer altruism and bravery vs face-saving with a dose of old-fashioned celebrity-royalty narcissism?
The signals sent by these three individuals are mixed, and I’m no mind-reader, but their actions and words provoke further questions to ascertain sincerity, change of mind and heart, congruence and credibility.
I’m sorry, does anyone else find it extremely suspicious that India just happens to find a flash drive and grab it as she is leaving? I mean seriously! She is hating on Mark and she is just as bad. She was taking evidence from the house on the way out. The only reason she handed it over was as a get-out-of-jail-free card. They are all victims and perpetrators. For her to point the finger after they as a group spent including you Frank spent all that time and energy trying to free from the group and help shows her immaturity. The person she should be angry at is Keith Raniere.
I have ZERO sympathy for any of the so-called victims, they got what they deserve. If you’re so stupid and weak-willed to not ask questions when someone gives you a resume of complete horseshit like Raniere did, then you got what you deserve. I also notice all the supposed victims are quite wealthy, so they profited from their time in Nxivm. Both those documentaries are little more than self-indulgent, self-absorbed crap from moronic elitists who got conned. So go cry in the corner about it ’cause those of us who can think for ourselves aren’t impressed by those crocodile tears and we sure as hell don’t feel any shred of sympathy for them.
It is hard to explain or understand how one can be so affected by those around them. The fact they are insulated and with each other feeding each other the same ideals has something to do with it. It seems the cult focused on wealthy people to begin with judging on the exuberant prices of the program. Do not underestimate the power and persuasion of a Master manipulator. It could happen to anyone and I’m glad that they are putting their story out there for whatever reason they have, so others can learn from and avoid the mistakes they made
After having intently watched The Vow, I wanted to know whether Catherine got her daughter back. I started watching Seduced and just immediately felt something was off. I do believe India was victimised in this cult. However, Mark, Sarah & Bonnie all were too. They worked hard to free her and get those fuckers arrested. Her focus is off. She doesn’t seem as angry at Allie or Keith as she is at Mark which is very strange. I stopped watching halfway through episode 2, googled what I was feeling and this came up. Thank you for adding to the context. I’ve turned Seduced off and I won’t be re-engaging. As someone who also fell prey to a cult, I don’t like being manipulated.
I agree with you Marilyn and am glad Frank is offering a different perspective.
Hi,
I think she’s extremely angry at Keith Raniere, and very saddened by Allison’s cruel behavior. However, I feel that the reason the focus on Mark is so strong has to do with him being, basically and genuinely, a good guy. This gave him power AND responsibility, and he seems to have gotten lost in both. That’s how I’ve felt about Mark for a while now, even before watching Seduced. Mark certainly paid his dues to society – but he was never completely honest with HIMSELF, and that makes it harder not to be critical towards his behavior, which border-lines denial.
I agree with Marilyn. Spot on. I felt India’s performance to be contrived and clearly her comments were rehearsed. Something was off. I felt “Seduced” was a PR rebranding tactic. No thanks. Manipulative at the very least. We all must live with what we’ve done, respective of our class and socioeconomic circumstance and I am not a fan of the rebranding tactics that people with money are privy to. Live with what you’ve been involved with, being foolish doesn’t exonerate India from culpability, but apparently offering the last nail in the coffin (flash drives) does.
The whole time i was watching ‘seduced’ i felt something was off. It felt like a public image piece. She even admits in it her mother did what she did so she wouldnt be arrested. If it wasnt for her mother she would have gone down like the rest of them. I think Mark did a much better job of portraying things accurately and i didnt feel he tried to evade his role in the organization. After how they all worked together it seemed super shady to me that they threw mark under the bus in Seduced, and hardly even mentioned Bonnie. Now she will build a whole carrier off of being a victim. I just find the whole thing off putting.
Why are we expected to forget Vicente’s past actions because he finally did the right thing?? This is the second time he’s promoted dangerous “gurus” and their cults while he made money off introducing their ideology to the public.
Let’s talk about Ramtha and What the Bleep? Do you see Vicente trying to warn people about Ramtha after he openly promoted her with his film? There are multiple reports of Ramtha devotees drinking lye and reports of children being molested during her “wine ceremonies”. Vicente openly promoted this woman before becoming Raniere’s p.r. guy and attacker of former NXIVM defectors.
Why are we expected to be thankful Vicente actually followed the law AFTER his wife split?
It’s completely possible to give credit to Vicente for all he did to take NXIVM down and still recognize the part he played in keeping Raniere in power within the cult. He openly admits cultivating the sickening curriculum of JNESS from the SOP training he helped to implement with Raniere. He refuses to publicly acknowledge how much money Edmondson and he made off the people they conned into the cult.
They openly used their own credibility to bring young pretty actresses into the cult, some of which ended up in DOS. Maybe if Vicente hadn’t spent years promoting cult leaders, more lives could have been saved from years of mental and sexual abuse.
Ramtha is still doing whatever she wants and Vicente stays silent as he collects another paycheck off his involvement with cults via HBO and the obvious Edmondson/Vicente commercial “The Vow”.
One thing I notice as a difference between the two documentaries is that India seems very rehearsed and she’s clearly reading off of a cue card and it just isn’t natural speech. It feels like India is trying to convince you of her side of the story.
I noticed that, as well, but some people just aren’t comfortable speaking memorized speeches or off-the-cuff on camera. While it was a little unnatural at times, I assumed India wanted to convey very specific statements and therefore utilized a teleprompter.
At one point on the “The Vow”, Mark talks about how he was the person who brought people in. He encouraged them to stay, and he breaks down about this. I think you are seeing both sides of what it is like to be in a cult. It is a delicate thing to unpack what happened to both people.
I was glad I watched both “The Vow” and “Seduced” because they worked in tandem to provide a better understanding of NXIVM. However, when I finished “The Vow,” I have to admit I wasn’t totally clear on what crimes Keith Raniere had committed. After “Seduced,” I no longer had these questions. It’s hard not to feel that “The Vow” greatly softened Raniere’s role, and to wonder if that was done, even subconsciously, to protect the filmmakers. I hope the second season of “The Vow” addresses these omissions.
Yep this. Watching India on Seduced, alarms bells kept going off. The series more or less exists to rehabilitate her reputation but I cannot get past that she had to be forced to leave essentially at the orders of the DA of NY. She didn’t leave by her own choosing, not really.
Vicente does have a part in the story that is not good but he also deserves credit for trying to reverse the many mistakes he made.
India’s part?
She only left when her back was literally against the wall with the threat of arrest. At no point was it because she came to some realization and made a decision for herself. Even that decision was made for her – by the NY DA.
What did she do after that to help other NXIVM victims? Best I can tell it’s nothing. She didn’t even testify. She did turn over some evidence but best I could determine, little of it was used in the trial.
She did repudiate Raniere but that was actually it. She never actually said anything against NXIVM itself and its “teachings”.
So if I had to choose whose side to be on – actions speak louder. It is an easy call to back up Vicente. He and his wife made moves that put them in danger of a bottomless pit of money of millionaires and other NXIUM members with the goal of getting all others out of that cult. The other had to be literally forced to turn her back and her only goal after was to save herself.
The footage of Mark Vicente and Keith Raneire in The Vow is VERY uncomfortable – Mark fully gave himself to Keith as his own Master, a clear follower, laughing at his sad and often disturbing little ‘jokes’. Allowing his wife to sleep in a dog bed next to him. Watching Keith talk about rape in Seduced – I will never truly understand why every man and woman didn’t get up and walk out of the room then and there. Sickening. I am sure Mark is genuinely trying to come to terms with his role in Keith’s destruction but if he is permitted to share his story, India must be allowed to share her perspective as well. The Vow seems to be a ‘lighter’ version of the darkness and I think India is braver in this respect. Both are fascinating to outsiders but ultimately confirm there are truly no winners here.
I didn’t see India’s doc, but II think she’s on to something. The characters in The Vow never seemed capable of recognizing they did bad things, but they continued to call themselves “good people.” I understand they are still early in their healing, but they failed to recognize the fact that they have evil inside them like all of us do. They emotionally abused people.
–They emotionally abused people.
Keith taught a form of self-interest that was in congruence with his psychopathy. This was not a “It is better to give than receive” or “Do unto others what you want to have done unto you” club. It was a do whatever you want, but pretend to be nice and fuck everyone else in the nicest way possible kind of thing. I think every long-term member who was programmed over the years learned how to emotionally manipulate–if not abuse–people.
I disagree, I think the people on The Vow do feel badly.I think they are just beginning to understand what was done to THEM Their reality was pulled out from underneath.
I didn’t see anything wrong at all about Mark Vicente in Seduced, neither did a friend of mine.
India is so brave to tell her story and let us understand it through her own experience..
Both Mark and India are survivors! Both did something about it! Both will save many lives!
India Oxenburg is as gullible and naive as a small child. In documentary Seduced and for “show” only, we saw her getting “therapy” from a holistic quack who has a self label of “neuromuscular trauma therapist”.
Will you ever learn?
“Neuromuscular trauma therapist”
I don’t know exactly what this is, but if it is anything like Dr. Peter Levine’s work on trauma therapy, it is NOT quackery.
I mean, she was 19 when she joined, so yeah, she pretty much was a naive and gullible child. People’s brains don’t stop developing until around 25-26.
Mark was 41 when he joined, AND he had been in a different cult for years shortly before jumping to NXIVM. Will he ever learn?
Mark allowed Raniere to dominate and work his wife Bonnie like a slave. Her recounting of getting up at 5AM and doing unpaid work for Raniere until 2AM was when she was married to Mark.
No husband who loves his wife, even cared for her, would allow this to happen.
Bonnie is still brain washed in that she is married to another abuser (if she is still with Mark).
What man would let another man work his wife into exhaustion and sickness to line his pockets?
Anyone that cannot see Mark is a slippery duplicitous snake is blind, deaf and dumb.
Further, these people were all self indulgent narcissistic fools. Sitting around for months talking? Believing they were going to change the world by workshopping and dancing with expensive coffees? They all deserve ridicule and scorn- not sympathy. Grandiose fools.
The first rule of enlightenment: Chop Wood, Carry Water.
After enlightenment: Chop Wood, Carry Water.
People do realize he got immunity from the FBI for testimony, right? This wasn’t just some humanitarian act he was doing, he was assuring he wouldn’t go to prison. People do realize all that horrible footage of Raniere, where he says truly gruesome things, was edited by Mark. When you’re editing footage about the fuckability of babies or any of the J’NESS stuff period, you know something is wrong. Not only did you experience it firsthand, you also looked at it with a critical eye for the edit. I mean c’mon. His wife, however, I do feel sorry for. She’s the only one out of the whole pile that seems to have the proper sense of shame about what went on. She’s usually disassociating in the documentary, and who could blame her? While Mark grandstands in the background talking about his strong moral fiber over 8 episodes, as he receives immunity and makes money hand over fist from a documentary. Why weren’t his assets seized is what I’d like to know. They left thousands penniless, and he is literally spending their money while he plays the victim.
I fully agree with Frank. It’s sad how they are testing Mark. And seriously, I wanna know why India was not arrested or anything??? Bc of family power did she get immunity? She victimized women and admitted it on The Vow to her mom. So what they are trying to do to Mark now is just disgusting.
MTE
(my thoughts exactly – in case anyone suspects it’s yet another “program” XD)
I read an interesting article India did with Esquire Mag.
Funny how woman can be victims but it’s harder to think of men being victims of Raniere for so many narrow minds.
India was willing to throw Mark Vicente under the bus with no regard to the fact of years of being under the same brainwashing techniques she was subject to.
Here’s is what India has to say about her DOS Master Allison Mack in her interview
“How do you feel about Allison Mack today?
That’s a hard question because I haven’t had any contact with Allison since the time she was arrested. So I don’t really know what her mindset is, if she’s decided to see the truth, if she’s had psychological help. I just don’t know. So it’s hard for me to pass judgment on her in that way. I don’t think it’s fair because I want to be the kind of person that gives people the benefit of the doubt that they’ll see the truth, they’ll own up to what they’ve done. Because I’m still doing that in my own process”.
So India would be willing to not pass judgment if Allison owns up to what she’s done.
Hum… didn’t Mark and Sarah not only own up to what they did but also take down the evil empire of NXIVM saving Catherine’s child?
Yet India is the kind of person who passed judgment on them in her show after they saw the truth and did more to save hundreds if not thousands from Raniere’s torture, including India herself.
Inda was one of the last followers to leave her Master Raniere and got a plea deal for sex trafficking of one of her slaves?
So how can we trust what she is saying about Mark is true? She said she’s the kind of person in a interview that makes her look kind and together but shows herself to be very different natured in her TV show. Something doesn’t add up.
So agreed with you. India’s statements in TV (which I found of youtube) and magazine (bless the internet) interviews just don’t follow the same narrative, just in a matter of a week I saw & read her vary her facts, if I bothered to dig I’d probably find even more discrepancies. It should also be said I’ve read Catherine’s book (also watched the Lifetime movie but that’s a very ‘lite’ version) and am keeping up with Seduced, even though the latter had shot my blood pressure up several times. To hear India speak which such deliberate venom of Mark Vicente in episode 2 (also maybe in 1? don’t remember) you’d honestly think it was him who was the cult leader! WTF!
So much W-T-F.
Look, Mark was a whistle blower when he found out. It may have taken a bit of persuading by Bonnie but at least when he did find out, he acted on it and ran with it. He could have closed the lid. Told his friend to stop filming and shut the whole thing down. Instead, he did the right thing, he contacted other people in NXIVM and tried to tell them and found out about DOS and then they worked out a way to attempt to take Keith down. They didn’t even know if it would work at the time. And, yes, they knew they could potentially be charged too. That’s a big risk!
India talking about Mark crying on the phone and asking her to come back, well it not only sounds weird but I’ve worked on sets and my kids would cry every morning and ask me not to go to work because they are 15 or more hour days. I still went to work. Mark isn’t her child. He is no relation to her. He is just someone she knows. If one of my friends was crying because I was working away somewhere, I would think they had lost their mind! And why didn’t she use NLP on him and tell him that was his issue and he needed to work on it? Maybe get an EM around it? At some point, you have to be an adult. I know they were her friends and she was being bombarded with messages but there were was a choice there. She could have gone these people will not even let me do my job properly and that is against their own principles, so I need to turn off this phone and only keep on my work phone. Or I’m going to allow these people to influence me because, obviously, they need me that badly I’m that important to them. She chose the latter because it suited her. She can’t then blame Mark for it. Just like I can’t say my kids are spoilt brats for crying. No, they just want to see me. It’s my choice whether I stay or go. I live with the consequences. If my kids start throwing tantrums because I’m never home, I don’t go I will blame that on the people I work with because they have given me a job. That’s ridiculous! Take some responsibility.
Agreed!
As an aside, I had a grown man cry at me once, and, well, I hung up on him. (I’ve come to really like Mark Vicente from his talk with Leah and Mike on the “Fair Game” podcast (one ep, very worth the listen) and based on what I’ve seen in The Vow (the podcast was what really made me see him as an actual human person instead of just a docu subject) and I don’t say this to mean I would have hung up on Mark if I was in India’s shoes. Just that in human interactions there tends to be the option of Just Saying No, verbally or non-verbally.)
Thanks for what you shared, as usual. I once was told the girl had dyslexia and is more vulnerable to being manipulated/hypnotized/”seduced” basically. no doubt she was entirely innocent at the start of it all and then things happened.. at least she turned back to the light now. But like many people, I remember being online with everyone else on FB telling her to leave the cult and I got blocked lol. But her sweet mom was reaching out to a lot of us. It kind of hurt my feelings being blocked because I’d hoped to make a difference but maybe I said something that struck a nerve too much when she was already struggling with all these lunatics. I’m just glad Raniere’s in jail haha love you, frank
Hadn’t heard that dyslexia made you vulnerable to Keith’s manipulative techniques. Toni says she’s dyslexic. Wonder if this was something Keith used to find prey?
I have no idea about his techniques specifically, to be honest! I was just taught that there has been research where they discovered dyslexics are apparently more suggestible. It fascinated me because I wrote in mirror-image unintentionally sometimes as a kid and I myself did have past abusive (but, thankfully, unofficial and undocumented) relationships. And I do feel like people have almost hypnotized me at times. In fact, one guy who hurt me over a decade ago almost did it again until I “snapped out of it” you could say! Realizing he just wanted to use someone as always. It felt great to shut down someone rather than get used and abused. I’ve studied abusive relationships and trauma a lot trying to avoid it 🙂 Now, I only seem to attract psychological abusers LOL but I know enough about the psychopathic cycle to avoid that pretty well too.
I don’t think anything is black or white. The question is, how black or white. The truth of Vicente’s role in NXIVM will be revealed.
Team Mark vs Team India
Try no more women and girls will be victimized by Keith Raniere!!!
….Most importantly, Frank has groupies!!!
Watching The Vow, my husband and I kept saying “Why is Vicente off the hook” and “This guy’s the worst.”
Simple: Because he flipped. LOL
Scott’s right!!!!!!
NiceGuy, you and Scott will become friends after all. NiceGuy, have you now adopted a new tactic against Scott by praising him.
The systematic, intentional NXIVM cult programming—the mastermind of a sociopathic ‘dark triad’ individual and a trained psychologist and hypnosis expert—slowly undermined the intuition/gut warning system, critical thinking and judgement in participants. On top of that was an overlay of intimidation, group think pressures and the knowledge that nobody could walk away without facing a wrath of weaponized lawsuits perpetuated by a system with endless resources.
Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, India and Nippy were all on the same boat, just occupying different seats. All were considered ‘prized’ recruits due to their celebrity, wealth or connections. All were targeted and manipulated in ways unique to them as individuals.
It makes sense that people are searching to assign blame. It is unsettling and uncomfortable to accept that ALL of them are perpetrators and victims. It is normal to be unnerved when faced with true evil (K.R.).
Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, Catherine, and India all played a pivotal role in taking down Vanguard. The Frank Report was the trailblazer and lighthouse and safe haven for so many. The first defectors, who fought against this cult, cannot be forgotten. It took so much time, so much work and so many people to take down Vanguard. Think about that for a moment.
I am praying for all of the victims of this cult.
Well said, different seats-same boat-different charter.
In my opinion – Mark was fully involved with NXIVM at the time he was coaxing India into taking more classes, as was India herself. They were both full believers in KR and thought they were doing great things for the World. India was part of that “family” and so was Mark. Brainwashed, if you will. I do NOT believe that Mark had bad intentions. If he was aware of KR’s secret goals, he would have NEVER tried to convince India into taking more curriculum. When the proof came out, he and Bonnie, as well as yourself Frank and others, kicked it into high gear to expose KR and his cult and to save as many followers as possible. Including India. She is an amazing person from what I can tell. I do not personally know her.
Mark was a victim as well. I also believe India meant no ill intent by her story in Seduced against Mark. She was just sharing her experience. I have the utmost respect for her being able to open up to the world. It must have been very difficult.
I would be surprised if India and Mark are actually having a rift. After all, they were both victims. There is still so much healing for all parties to happen. It will be a long road.
Thank you Frank for the excellent reporting on this story. I lived actually yards away from where this was all going on. I always look forward to your articles. Kudos and God Bless.
Linda G
The Frank Report – Your First Source in MRA MGTOW Incel News And Opinions
Hey Frank, how many men do you think you convinced to go harass a rape victim and her mother?
Perhaps you will consider presenting your ideas without the ad hominem attacks. That will be helpful. So what exactly is your complaint? Why do you think I am encouraging men to harass a rape victim and her mother? Who are you talking about? And how am I encouraging this?
Don’t be a MORON. Frank has been devoted to freeing women from that godawful cult and everybody with a brain knows that; so get the f#ck over yourself. The girl and her mom like Frank at this point so forget you
Even through typed text, your toxic hatred reeks through.
You obviously hate men. Are you mad because you are ugly? Many ugly women hate men. Or were you raped or molested? Not the fake kind, but the real kind?
Do you hate Muslim “men”? What about Black “men”? Their rape habits are very toxic.
In The Vow, they very carefully avoid nailing down the timeline of Mark Vicente’s relationship with Bonnie Piesse. I think it is because if people did the math on the age difference in their relationship they would (rightfully) have a negative opinion of how Mark Vicente relates to women.
Yes, I know there was nothing illegal about their relationship, but something can be wrong without being illegal.
From The Vow, it’s shown that Bonnie joins in 2010, and Bonnie leaves nxivm in 2017. They were married sometime between those two dates since basically everyone in attendance except her mom were Nxivm members. Mark says he realizes that they never had a honeymoon, which might serve to imply that the wedding happened sometime shortly before Bonnie left Nxivm.
All information about their wedding date has been scrubbed from the internet if it ever existed. This is very unusual for public figures.
If anyone knows the date their wedding happened, or the year they started dating, please reply to confirm my suspicions.
What does that have to do with anything? They could have been seven or ten years older. My ex husband was 12 years older than me and we weren’t in a cult. That’s just a ridiculous assumption. The things he was being brainwashed by Keith may have affected his thinking about women since he advocated a polyamorous lifestyle and sticking it in where ever it felt good by the sounds of things. However, if that is their business and not yours or mine and I hope everything is going well for them.
I don’t understand your suspicion or why it’s your business.
Perhaps Mark Vicente and Bonnie Piesse only got married when the bomb exploded over DOS, and the marriage serves to ensure that both have a right to refuse to testify, and do not have to testify against each other, which serves Mark Vicente more than vice versa.
Himitsu, I’m not sure what you are implying here. Bonnie Piesse was born in 1983, making her 27 years old when she joined NXIVM in 2010. Vicente is now 55 years old, his wife is 37. A significant age gap, but not illegal or wrong.
Bonnie left NXIVM before Mark did; therefore, it doesn’t appear that he was coercing or controlling her.
Frank, sorry to tell you this, but Mark Vicente is just as guilty as Keith Raniere on several counts. That you worked together to fight and defeat NXIVM is another thing. He did not have any other choice, if he hadn’t testified and delivered evidence to the FBI, right now he would be in prison.
Vicente pushed several people into the cult, like me. In the end, I decided to stay away, after all the pressure I received. India Oxenberg is having the same feelings I have, and I understand why she blames Vicente. He decided to go to the FBI, but he knows he committed several crimes and knew about Raniere’s activities. Are you sure Vicente wasn’t aware of the branding? He knew it, he only shut his mouth. He also knew several other things about Raniere, like modifying evidence of a trial using Megan [redacted] (you published information on this matter). Or her mother, who was the accounting department, laundering money from Mexico?
Vicente knew all that, but he wanted power and remained silent until the bubble exploded.
Assuming all that you said is true — Mark Vicente went to the feds — they did not go to him — he went to them – with evidence – and he went to me — and he went to the New York Times – that makes him a whistleblower. That grants exoneration right there in my book.
Mark Vicente didn’t have to go to the FBI. He could have tried to walk away quietly. Instead, he chose to do what is right.
Just like Bonnie, just like Sarah, Anthony, and all the other upright people, who came forward.
If you haven’t been in a situation like they were, it’s impossible to judge.
It’s easy to a simplistic opinion afterward.
I blame the NXIVM training or indoctrination and methods on the fact that so many of these relationship dynamics among defectors are warped and difficult. They were very good at pitting people against each other, casting blame and judgment away from Keith and Nancy ET AL onto their stooges…
If you think there’s a lot of melodrama in this Vancouver contingent, you should have been there in 2009 – 2012 when the NXIVM 9 left, the statutory rape victims came forward, the TU expose was in the works and everyone was being investigated, framed, blamed, arrested and sued left and right. Some of those conflicts and the toll taken on embattled psyches persist to this day among people who are decades away from their exposure to the toxic tech.
Trust me, Keith and Nancy well prepared for another round of defections and exposes – in no small part by weaponizing ALL of you against one another.
Sad to see you FALL for it.
Yeah, KR and his remaining followers must be very happy to see defectors jumping at each other throat.
I first had the idea there was no war going on, that Mark knew what India was going to say in Seduced and agreed, that they both wanted everyone to understand the complexity of being an “Ex-culter”, and let the public feel whatever they feel with some educational purpose. That they were going to explain everything in the end. (btw they can feel free to borrow this idea if that wasn’t their’s to begin with, it’s not too late).
This idea is slowly fading away, learning who India chose to stay friends with on Facebook, and that gets me sad and scared.
I also hope if some people here have more revelations that can take down the war (pointing at blog editor), they will release them soon enough before the war story backfires on all Nxivm victims…
Thats what betrayal bonding does, it establishes a conviction that only by subjugating others. Can I protect myself against annihilation.
“Sad to see you FALL for it.”
Agree, but it should not be surprising. This was the culture that Keith created. I remember being appalled at how Keith would make fun of people behind their back and encouraged this toxic behavior. It was one of the first signs I noticed that led me to realize the emperor was nude.
“The emperor was nude.”
Nutjob, that’s not something I want to picture in my mind.
Aren’t you part of the crew that regularly trashes Toni Natalie using the same words Keith Raniere uses? Again, former members are the last people to lead the way in ethical behavior.
Frank Parlato is creating this click bait to sic incels on victims. He loves to mess with rape victims, but no problems with protecting the fragile egos of men.
Take note of how Judge Garaufis treated Cami and the sadistic dangling of privacy Frank used as click bait. This is more of the same misogyny and sadism.
Heidi was never a member of Nxivm. She had a sister who was close to Keith Raniere, [He allegedly raped her when she was 15] and later she lost her life. It is unclear whether she committed suicide or was murdered.
I disagree with your sexist premise. I think I tried to help a fair number of women get out of harm’s way, including India. And I think I helped Camila too by publishing material on her boyfriend/abuser Keith – causing him to leave the US and allowing Camila to leave Nxivm and her lonely apartment in Knox Woods.
I don’t expect gratitude from either Camila or India, but there is a pretty good chance that had I not been in the battle, they would still be with Raniere today.
Up until Camila came out against Raniere, something she did not do until just prior to the sentencing, she was, in my eyes, like many others, both male and female, a mix of victim and perpetrator. She probably would have been named, first name and last, along with her sister, Marianna, except that Daniela, as a victim, was being shielded from last name identification and it was known they were all sisters. I respected most of the naming conditions of the court, although I have some grave doubts about how some people were chosen to be first name only and others first and last name and what impact that had on the jury.
Camila had some issues that were clearly problematic, and the prosecution said she was complicit in the sex trafficking of Nicole, being the woman who participated with Raniere in her sexual assault. She was also a first-line DOS master who recruited slaves and was actively searching for virgins for Keith.
Now that she has come forward and told her tale and it is a believable tale – one of years of abuse, I see her as a victim and am willing to buy into her story that, based on the abuse she received from Raniere, she is absolved, in my opinion, of the things that she otherwise would be blamed for.
Prior to her telling her actual story, I asked for reader input and based on that I decided to stop using her photo. Prior to that, I stopped using her last name.
As for India, I do not see misogyny or sadism in the mere holding of women and men to the same standard of accountability and honesty. In India’s case, it is not like we are talking about a victim who is anonymous. India has her own TV series. She is not a tiny infant. She may be a rape victim, but she is also a TV personality who has gone out to tell her story on TV. The mere reporting of the contrasting views of Mark Vicente is not misogyny or sadism or trying to set incels, as you call them, on victims. If India wanted to hide out from all the incels you imagine are just waiting to pounce on her because of this blog she probably should not have done a four-part docuseries.
By the way, I congratulate India on her decision to do a docuseries instead of hiding from the world. Maybe Camila should consider doing the same thing too.
It’s too bad the feds wanted the big fish in Nxivm because there are so many people getting away with crimes ,India,Mark ,Sarah,Bonnie,Nippy the list is as long as my arm .You would all be wise to keep your mouths shut wait until all this mess is over then disappear.
This all reminds me of the collapse of Nazi Germany and the subsequent trials at Nuremberg. They were all in on it. They were all in on an insane, cruel system, propping up an insane, cruel man at its head. Then, when it all came crashing down, they argued that they, too, were just victims of the the system. Mark Vicente is the Albert Speer of NXIVM, cashing in on charm and looks to appear like just another victim instead of a key player.
And it’s not just Vicente. It’s all of them, India Oxenberg included.
Not one of these victim/perpetrators has said, “Keith, you turned me into a cruel person, a criminal. You manipulated my dark aside until I became no different than you.” In other words, none of them, except those who were convicted, have owned up to their roles in this whole disaster. I would respect them more if they did.
Shadow??? Dat you in a John disguise?
I get your point, John, but come on now…
Allison Mack and Joe Biden were not mentioned.
It’s safe to assume it is not Shadow.
Shadow only hates Communism not Fascism.
Remember when he said, “Keith Raniere can never hold a torch to the Führer.”
Further clues to Shadow’s non-involvement!
Nice Guy I had no idea Shadowstate is a fan of the infamous one. Although it’s not surprising Shadow being from Chicago, Illinois and all.
Illinois is the home of the notorious Illinois Nazis. The Illinois Nazis were referenced in the movie the Blue Brothers.
No, it is I (notice the predicate nominative), Mr. Job…or may I call you Nut? In any case, the analogy to National Socialism was just that: an analogy, not a declaration of equivalence. Obviously NSDAP was worse than NXIVM.
Well said!
I find it VERY telling that India is no longer friends with Bonnie, Sarah or Mark on Facebook – yet she is STILL friends with Mack, Clyne, Salzman’s sister, and other loyalists. The fact that she isn’t friends with Bonnie anymore especially makes it appear she harbors resentment that the house of cards was brought down. Hate to say it, but even India admits her motivation for the new doc series is to rewrite the “sex cult girl” image made of her in headlines.
How do you know it wasn’t the other way around? You don’t.
Actually there are a number of reasons I do know with 99% certainty.
1. The first is called “odds.” The odds are 3 to 1 here… I know many people aren’t good at math, but numbers don’t lie.
2. Bonnie’s character – she has shown to be a woman of strong character, so to think she would abandon her friend that she met early on in the cult is not likely.
3. The relationship that all 3 developed with Catherine.
4. India is following all but a couple of the 8 women who recently came out defending DOS. How likely is it that she remains ‘friends’ with all of them, as well as Allison and the NXIVM 5 – yet still regrets her involvement.
Common sense rules the day, whether you hate facts and the truth or not!
Have you seen Seduced? It is pretty clear from it that India despises Allison and Nancy, her feelings on Lauren are less clear. She blames Allison for manipulating her into a sexual relationship with KR – and blames Nancy for alienating her from her mother. Would not surprise me if she speaks at both of their sentencing.
Once again, we are at the very heart of the media’s role in judging a person, in this case (Marc Vicente). I’m sure Frank will objectively reveal the information he’s obtained in this case.
https://www.reddit.com/user/SnooConfections3241/
“This right here is my massive problem with all this.
Mark was one of the top members of NXIVM. He sat on the board, and reported directly to Keith. He knows far more than he will ever admit. At no point during any of the documentaries or coverage that I’ve seen has he stood there and admitted the horrid things he was responsible for.
I’m not against Mark or anyone else who was drawn into a cult, but I’d expect people to take some responsibility and use their platform for the good of the people whose lives they helped destroy (which, to be fair, they are doing now).
Bonnie, Sarah, etc. less so, due to their stature within the company but they still have to shoulder some responsibility for the people they groomed into the lifestyle.
For someone to suggest they are owed gratitude for undoing the pain they had a hand in causing is laughable”.
Reddit people:
“Mark was one of the top members of NXIVM. He sat on the board and reported directly to Keith. He knows far more than he will ever admit. At no point during any of the documentaries or coverage that I’ve seen has he stood there and admitted the horrid things he was responsible for.”
This is a good point. He could get into more of the details and admitting his wrongs more specifically — I think it would help how he is perceived if he went out on a limb and divulged in a more honest, and self-reflective way. Instead of the general wash of going from victim to whistleblower.
However, my problem with overly blaming Mark, and looking at India as this victim of it all, is that each and every one of them was both a victim and perpetrator. Imagine if one of India’s slaves that she recruited made a documentary and talked about what India did to recruit her? Or things she did to her own slaves? Then we’d all be talking about India the same way we’re talking about Mark. India could’ve found herself in jail and be awaiting her own sentence right now–if not for her family connections and everything that her mother and Mark, Bonnie and Sarah did to get her out. She was seen as “Co-Conspirator #2” in the eyes of the government. Right alongside Alison Mack! That hardly makes her just a victim.
It just seems incredibly small sighted to look back at how Mark was before he woke up and look at him like he is this awful person. They were all awful people while they were still drinking the Kool-Aid.
They all did bad things for Keith’s bidding. And Mark gets more points as far as I’m concerned, by waking up sooner than India, who adamantly stood by Keith after all the horrible news broke– as well as after her own bad experiences, after which, she turns around and recruits more women! And now she’s going to point the finger at Mark?
Although to be fair, I didn’t think Mark has been depicted as very awful in Seduced. Everything she says about him is not surprising. He was still in at that time! And I don’t think he was very threatening or forceful or freaky. He was just being how everyone in the cult was being. And if it’s part of her story– whatever– I guess it’s fair game since it happened.
NXIVM was very compartmentalized – typical for such groups, and also for scams, such as Bernie Madoff’s where he literally kept people separated several floors apart in the office tower where they had space. As was discussed recently, another board member, Boone, who wrote a letter of support for Raniere, may have been given special treatment and shielded from a good bit of what was going on, because of his status a key figure in recruiting wealthy Mexican elites.
So it’s hard to know what Vicente really knew, or saw. Though I would agree that he, and Edmondson, have yet to be completely forthcoming (such as explaining how they and the centers they owned made money, and how much) and take full responsibility, even if they have taken significant if not admirable steps in the right direction.
And it occurs to me, I don’t know if it’s ever been looked at through this lens, but perhaps it could be said that compartmentalizing information is a central functional aspect of high control groups and cult-like organizations – which might help people to better understand just how typical it is that members do not know the things that in retrospect, and after the group’s de-construction, appear obvious to outsiders.
Certainly, it’s characteristic that members are recruited while having the real nature and aims of the organization deliberately obscured, sort of like an old-fashioned mystery school or initiatory fraternal order (such as the Freemasons), and then at least as lower-level members are still kept from knowing what goes on at the upper levels and in the inner circles. But in the case of NXIVM knowledgeable observers like Frank have verified that knowledge was compartmentalized to a surprising degree even within the inner circle; perhaps that was one thing Raniere mastered, though he also had the help of enablers like Pam Cafritz.
This point about the compartmentalization can’t be stressed enough. Most commenters assume people knew/know bad stuff. I assume people did not know stuff.
Even Nancy was kicked to the side for a while and got really pissed when she found out about DOS. I’m not sold on Clare knowing a ton.
Keith knew who he could trust with what. I still hypothesize he had outside connections he’d only trust with the worst of the worst.
If you read Nxivm-related stuff online on social media platforms, especially if it’s attacking Frank Parlato, it does read very Spanky-ish.
“NXIVM was very compartmentalized – typical for such groups, and also for scams”.
Hi, Sultan. You say this exact same thing on your many aliases.
I do not think Sultan is AnonyMaker, who I have spoken to several times. Sultan is only interested in defending Kristin Kreuk. AnnoyMaker writes about a broad array of topics.
Actually, I like Sultan’s online persona. He may or may not be in a fantasy affair with Kreuk, but he is interested in her receiving fair treatment online. I don’t think he represents the slightest danger to Kreuk. He does not seem to be a stalker.
How do you know who Anonymaker is if you have never met him? He could call you up and tell you he is from the Zulu royal family. Sultan creates aliases to “back up” his Kreuk-defending. One such alias is Karl/Carl Bassett. He has so many aliases, he forgets that he used to spell it “Karl” and not “Carl”. He is over on Reddit as JRule31 talking about Nxivm and trashing your name. He is interested in Nxivm for no other reason but the woman he has spent nearly two decades thinking of while shaking the maraca, was a member and he blames the cult for Kreuk not marrying him. Screenshots exist of his secret ramblings. He literally thought he was going to marry Kreuk. Also, his face has been identified. You have no idea how deranged he is, but if you had seen what he has said, his behaviour would make A LOT of sense.
If what you type is true, I don’t know which is weirder: him doing all that, or you knowing he did all that.
All of these Hollyweird characters, and I do mean ALL of them, are damaged goods and it isn’t worth my time analyzing them. LOL
I know a lot of others will get all wrapped up in this “drama” because they are enchanted by the Hollyweird types, no matter how stupid and illogical they think and act. LOL
LOL
That is some awesome critical thinking!!!!
Love your neologisms.
Did it take you 48hr or 72hr to think them up?
“Illogical analizing..” It’s like a paradoxical-oxymoron.
I love you, man, if such a thing is possible!!!!
If you’ve watched both The Vow and Seduced, read here, other publications and podcasts, you’ve heard Mark’s descriptions of India while she was in Keith’s and Allison’s clutches. He went on and on about how much in love she was with Allison and Keith.
He made a lot of cringe worthy observations that were completely removed from the reality of abusive situations for women, situations that he himself participated in and taught. If you compare what Mark Vicente said about India Oxenberg, with her explanation of survival and trauma in the same time period, it all makes so much sense. What India describes is no different than any other abusive relationship that is malignant narcissist high control.
Pretending like everything is OK, to ensure that everything stays OK, and you don’t invite wrath or questioning for being negative or unhappy, that’s an often repeated pattern, historically. That’s the way everyone looks in the pictures and videos, huge fake smiles that cover eyes that look like they’re pleading or screaming. Mark thinks trauma behavior is normal. Mark thinks survival behavior is normal. Mark thinks it’s normal to treat women like animals. He is the last person to make public observations about anything other than the phone in front of his face. And then… he needs a hand holder to explain reality to him.
You guys were all part of that. You can’t be expected to get the nuance of ethical behavior. You signed up for that too and looked the other way. Maybe commodifying every facet of human misery is a bad idea and sitting out until you have healed is the way to go.
Just wait until professional journalists cover the militant MRA operations of SOP. Mark won’t be able to ever set foot in this country again. NXIVM mirrors Militias on FBI terrorist watch lists. If that gives you any indication how fucked up this really great empowering ideology that has done good for people, ranks in the public minds.
I like it. Every time you make one of these completely tone deaf posts, it really gives a window into the depraved unethical behavior out of Albany and Espians across the borders. The idea of heroes is narrowing into the acceptance of flawed victims that offer insights but not from the intent of their words. No, you are the last people to decide this.
In the words of Sarah Edmondson, ‘I would have thought all this #metoo bullshit was full of liars and I wouldn’t have cared’.
Really, that’s all of you.
It’s always enlivening when someone strides over, pulls up a chair and puts the six-shooters right on the table. Applause from an audience over here. What about any recovery, do you speculate, for some who might still be woebegone now? From all of that inculcation and arduous practice? Each to his or her own devices for that?
There are commenters here who have watched all of this with great interest and from the sidelines. Raniere, for some among the “you all” whom you have encompassed here in your written words so broadly, is, in my view an insane, criminal pervert and a completely fucked -up, repulsive asshole.
There are good, bad, ugly and beautiful six-shooters all over the table, though. Have a look.
Not for a New York nano-second would this turd be attractive. He is one of a long, long line-up of similar turds, his-torically and even her-torically. I take liberties with descriptives.
But who can forget Vicente’s first turkey, the lady-man, Ramtha? Her story is both revolting and terribly funny. Thick traffic and so many far, far-out offramps!
This cult crap has gotta be cured in advance of any symptoms, to elude the heavy damages and the aftermaths acquired from playing these types of roles. I want to see US, we the people, figure out ways to prevent madnesses rather than be the garbage workers who pick up the trash heaps later on, and often too late, after the debacles.
Freaking SOP and the men who worshipped, promoted, and glorified it. And Jness, the ladies auxiliary, which was supposedly started by Pam C, but the face is Nancy Salzman.
Frank, can we get a deep dive into Jness? I am sure you have much intel. Especially the planning stages, which were likely on record.
With respect to this: “Maybe commodifying every facet of human misery is a bad idea and sitting out until you have healed is the way to go.” : I agree but the commodifying of every facet of human misery seems to be to many people the only option available -they would need a deprogramming to change that. Is not so much for them that it’s a bad or a good idea, but that the rules they know doesn’t leave much more room for them to move than to commodify or being commodifyed.
Before India Oxenberg plays the victim here is a Blast from the Past.
“The Criminal Complaint reads:
Co-Conspirator 2 (“CC-2″) had been involved in Nxivm for several years before being introduced to DOS. In or about 2016, RANIERE co-founded ‘The Delegates’ with CC-2, which is a business that provides a network of people who can perform tasks for people in the Nxivm community in exchange for a fee. Based on information obtained over the course of the investigation, CC-2 is CC-1 ‘s [Allison Mack’s] direct slave.”
“Everyone in NXIVM knows India ran The Delegates. The idea was first promulgated by cult member James Del Negro. Raniere took credit for devising it and ordered India to operate it.
The “Delegates” were in fact gofers. The company was basically a gofer service where NXIVM slaves, illegal immigrants, and teen girls would run errands, clean homes, chauffeur, cook, and provide other services for NXIVM members ”
Leaked screenshots provide evidence India Oxenberg is Co-Conspirator #2
Frank Parlato
https://frankreport.com/2018/05/13/leaked-screenshots-provide-evidence-india-oxenberg-is-co-conspirator-2/
I can cite similar stories about how Mark Vicente altered evidence (video tapes) to be used in a civil suit against Rick Ross.
So India and Mark, stop playing the victim card.
Both of you could have been indicted.
Shadow,
India and Vicente have their plea deals. What are your thoughts regarding Nancy Salzman? Do go on.
Mark Vicente wants to play hero.
ALL former members are equally guilty and victims. India victimized others herself, she had slaves. Mark victimized her, she victimized others. She’s was a self entitled brat before the Cult and she still is after. THEY’RE ALL guilty, naive dopes. None of them should judge any former members because they’re ALL guilty. These people are all scum. Due to their stupidity, they cost millions of dollars of legal costs to clean up this mess.
You’re fools to take the side of ANY NXIVM member. A bunch of rich mostly white privileged people, were too self-absorbed to realize they were giving tons of power to some pipsqueak pedophile, something any one of them could have discovered with a google search.
EVERY MEMBER deserves our scorn, not our sympathy. They’re the people who allowed this mess to get completely out of control. They raised Keith up, stupidly buying into his rediculous new age self-help hypnotic dope talk, they created a TOTAL MESS and victimized so many.
All of them are horrible people, and India is just a dopey self-entitled rich girl who clearly isn’t very intelligent and now with this docuseries, she’s getting all the attention & money she’s felt entitled to since joining NXIVM. The girl took beaver shots of herself, Over and over again for MONTHS, and never thought about anything but this will finally get me what I deserve. She’s not very intelligent people, worship a worthy hero. All these people are self-entitled, irresponsible, IDIOTS.
ALL former members are equally guilty and victims. India victimized others herself, she had slaves. Mark victimized her, she victimized others. She’s was a self-entitled brat before the Cult and she still is after. THEY’RE ALL guilty, naive dopes. None of them should judge any former members because they’re ALL guilty. These people are all scum. Due to their stupidity, they cost millions of dollars of legal costs to clean up this mess.
You’re fools to take the side of ANY NXIVM member. A bunch of rich, mostly white, privileged people were too self-absorbed to realize they were giving tons of power to some pipsqueak pedophile, something anyone of them could have discovered with a google search. EVERY MEMBER deserves our scorn, not our sympathy. They’re the people who allowed this mess to get completely out of control.
They raised Keith up, stupidly buying into his ridiculous new age self-help hypnotic dope talk, they created a TOTAL MESS and victimized so many. All of them are horrible people, and India is just a dopey self-entitled rich girl who clearly isn’t very intelligent and now with this docuseries, she’s getting all the attention & money she’s felt entitled to since joining NXIVM. The girl took beaver shots of herself, over and over again for MONTHS, and never thought about anything but this will finally get me what I deserve. She’s not very intelligent, people, worship a worthy hero. All these people are self-entitled, irresponsible IDIOTS.
I fully agree
I agree Brett 1000000%
I agree with you. But I would also add that certain bad deeds can be repaired, even if they cannot be completely overridden, but admitting actions and good intentions to change can definitely make a positive difference in the case.
Re:
Brett
November 2, 2020 at 7:33 pm
and
Brett
November 2, 2020 at 7:26 pm
Why are identical comments published twice? This is an obvious highlighting, intentional or not.
The Frank Report posts identical comments frequently.
Most of the time when I rewrite a comment to correct typos, the Frank Report posts both the rough draft and the final version.
Even when my comment is ridiculous, they will post both copies.
Only ignorance is invincible. We didn’t know, therefore we’re innocent, we meant well, so we did good.
In two words: “Ignore – Ance.” Ignorance is always to some extent a deliberate action. You can’t truly ignore something of which you are totally unaware.
If you’re that close to a situation, ignorance in itself is therefore proof of guilt. One look at any of those workshops and my skin crawls — if you couldn’t see this stuff was manipulative and self-serving, draining people of money, life, energy and time, then you were just being too greedy, blinded by “opportunities” and rubbing shoulders and more with the rich and famous.
The main thing I get from this whole sordid affair, is just how awful the US education system must be. Even complete garbage like Rational Inquiry appears “inspirational” compared with the rubbish you get fed at schools and colleges. Oh, and I’m 100% certain that a competent hypnotist could have effected those Tourette’s cures in one session. The power of the mind is real.
Totally agree! Everyone is playing the victim now for the “Get out of jail free” card. But after watching both The Vow and Seduced, I thought “There are no victims”?? And how in the hell could you sit through KR talking about rape and babies??!!! And men can sleep with whoever they want, but you only sleep with me? I think this was about a lot of lonely people who needed to feel important and manipulate others.
Most of these people are lucky they weren’t prosecuted and jailed. Especially Vicente and India.
Maybe the best approach is not paying attention to how these characters look on TV dramatizations, but the facts as they are. As in sworn court testimony.
Vicente suckered a lot of people in the Nxivm scam. He did it for years and he made money doing it. He suckered Edmondson into it, as she specifies in her book. (She’s another piece of work who made money suckering people in the Nxivm cult.)
Vicente was one of the first of the rats off the ship when the branding scandal hit, like a torpedo in the boiler room. He went to the cops and spilled. I guess he deserves credit for that (?)
There are no heroes in this bunch of grifters, so let’s not waste time picking and choosing. All of them at one time were enthusiastic followers of the greasy cult leader Raniere, they were all more than happy to kiss his stinking asshole as long as there was the promise of personal gain in it.
Like everyone who joined Nxivm or any other cult, they were fools. The lowest of the low were merely gullible idiots who let themselves get fleeced. All of the higher-ups – including these two clowns – were complicit in a pyramid scheme, a criminal racket, a whacky cult.
These two ought to be hanging their heads in shame, but instead, they fight over who gets to play hero. Shameful. She’s a vapid, shallow airhead and he’s a two-bit grifter. And I think anyone who idealizes either of them is exactly the kind of imbecile who gets suckered into joining cults.
👍🏻
Mark Vicente is like Sammy ‘The Bull’ Gravano. Yes, Mark was instrumental in the takedown of NXIVM. But he only testified in exchange for immunity. Why does an innocent person need immunity?
Mark Vicente, just like Sammy The Bull, has blood on his hands. He was a part of NXIVM for years, in the inner circle, spent thousands of hours around Keith. And yes, he did turn the corner and help the takedown of Keith, Nancy, and the whole corrupt ‘n’ crooked lot. But that does not absolve him of his actions.
Mark, Blood is harder to wash away than soil. You might consider that next time.
But Sammy The Bull thought it was all ethical, he was duped into killing all those people. He was probably nice and look at all he did by coming forward to prevent conviction of himself. His victims’ families are such ingrates.
-Espian
One of the weaknesses of HBO’s “The Vow” is that the producers not only took Nxivm classes, they were also friendly with Mark Vicente, who absolutely has the responsibility to assess his own role in Nxivm’s success.
If Raniere had supposedly chosen Vicente as his ‘successor,’ that should tell you that, at least for a time, Vicente was as deeply imbricated in Nxivm as one can be. I am not blaming Vicente; I think that he is being brave, AFTER his wife helped wake him up.
I give her 90% of the credit for starting the earthquake that brought Nxivm down. It takes incredible bravery to see the truth and stand up and do something about it. However, I also know that Vicente has most likely fallen apart and has to put himself back together again, because he apparently worshipped at Raniere’s altar, at least for a time.
During that time, it is honest to acknowledge, he was not the hero of this story. Everyone involved, of course, has to analyze the role they played, but at the very least “Seduced,” in my opinion, is much, much more honest than “The Vow,” which sought to remain close to the story at least partially by not offending anyone involved.
To criticize someone like Vicente might now seem cruel, but he knows what he did, and I’m sure he’s paying the price, at least psychologically. All I have to do is remember that he tried to talk Bonnie out of her inner knowing; that does it for me. That’s the typical patriarchal, misogynist move women expect from men, particularly older men who have married younger women. That move is all about power, and maintaining the status quo, where he knows best and she’s his ‘student.’ If there’s one thing this story, in general, makes me deplore, it’s the tricks men have been using since time immemorial to maintain power over women.
I agree 100%
–That’s the typical patriarchal, misogynist move women expect from men, particularly older men who have married younger women. That move is all about power, and maintaining the status quo, where he knows best and she’s his ‘student.’
This is horse crap. There was no indicator that his behavior was due to misogyny. It could’ve been Vicente trying to rationalize his cognitive dissonance away that was due to the view he held of his leader at that time. The fact that he considered it after all the mind-bending that long-term followers in the cult experienced means that Bonnie had some real sway over him as she should have because she was his wife.
This tendency of the feminists and the feminist movement in general to see “patriarchy” in the bad behavior of some men is annoying.
You don’t know or care what misogyny is or what it looks like. Personally, I think they should all have parole officers and ankle monitors.
In 2014, more than 73% of those arrested in the US were males.[50] Men accounted for 80.4 percent of persons arrested for violent crime and 62.9 percent of those arrested for property crime.[50] In 2011, the United States Department of Justice compiled homicide statistics in the United States between 1980 and 2008.[51] That study showed the following:
Males were convicted of the vast majority of homicides in the United States, representing 89.5% of the total number of offenders.[51]
Young adult black males had the highest homicide conviction rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[51]
White females of all ages had the lowest conviction rates of any racial or age groups.[51]
Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological father conviction was slightly higher than for biological mothers.[51]
However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% of the people that were convicted were males.[51]
Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[51]
Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[51]
Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[51]
Males were most likely to be victims of drug-related (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[51]
2011 arrest data from the FBI:[52]
Males constituted 98.9% of those arrested for forcible rape[52]
Males constituted 87.9% of those arrested for robbery[52]
Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary[52]
Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson.[52]
Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism.[52]
Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft.[52]
Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children.[52]
Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault[52]
Males constituted 58.7% of those arrested for fraud.[52]
Males constituted 57.3% of those arrested for larceny-theft.[52]
Males constituted 51.3% of those arrested for embezzlement.[52]
No, Bonnie had to convince him over and over again. It took the words of others to convince him. “Show me the data”, that was on his computer and seared into his memory by action and deed. He speaks to Bonnie in patronizing ways that are apparent from his first words to her.
Hmm.. These statistics clearly point to the fact that police and the law must be completely anti-male!
LOL. Stats about male criminality don’t prove misogyny. If males commit the most crimes, their targets are likely going to be more males than females.
Scott and I can finally agree about something other than the temperature of our hot tub when we share one.
Love you man!!!! See yah soon!
Misandry anyone?
Men and women can coexist. [redacted]
Changes need to be made but you are not going to help with your ivory tower view point from academia land.
Sex and gender are separate right?
Well, why then in the animal kingdom is every animal gender reflect sex and vice/versa? Intelligent design? [redacted]
No more taking the Lords name in vain….
Frank is now in Jellicle Christian.
I’m going to say something terrible:
Men ain’t so bad.
There, I said it. Now lock me up in the Bastille!
Anonymous,
I totally agree. Well said.
I think in this case we can honestly say that misogynists were all over NXIVM. And Vicente ran the men’s group. The whole premise of the men’s group was to keep women in their place according to Keith’s agenda. You can’t tell me that it wasn’t sexist when Keith and Vicente were running it together. And much as I liked What the Bleep at the time and like Bonnie, some of that has to have run off Mark.
Thank you for sharing Mrs. Gunn. I did not have knowledge of those details.
You said it all! Perfect!
From my perspective, both of them are “commodificating” their respective experiences at the best of their possibilities. The differences in favour of each one of them are divided: in Mark’s case is the fact that even when he had a powerful role durinng his many years within NXIVM, he later put his resources together in order to dismantle the organization; in India’s case, she’ve never had as much power within the organization as he did, and there is also the fact that she´s a woman in a patriarcal society, which means she´s more vulnerable to predators like Raniere et al.
Sorry for the neologism: I meant “commodifying”.
She used her opportunity to inform others how and why, by including experts and professionals. She included other victims that trusted her to tell their story.
The other survivors in The Vow are either voiceless background workers at Sarah’s condo. Toni Natalie’s home is used as a stopover in which Mark confirms, yes, she should have been scared or worried about him. We are to assume he apologized off-camera, because with all this footage of Volley Ball and looking concerned at phone screens, forthcoming accountable apologies didn’t make the cut. Not to Toni or Susan. We are shown they give him a pass and the redemption errand is complete. Susan Dones story is seen through the vague circumstances of his participation, and her forgiveness on camera, minus the long explanation of what that campaign looked like, and his role in it.
The former members are treated as accessories to their narrative, in The Vow.
Seduced brings them forward and gives them a platform. I realize Season 2 is that platform for former members, it’s a good thing they passed the compliance audition.
The stories of women breaking free of abusive men can stand on their own without an abusive man dictating the narrative. That does no favors to anyone other than the people producing a bad product.
Mark knows India was specifically groomed because of her status. He knows because he did it. Crickets on his and Bonnies end. That’s one way to undo a misdeed, tell the truth.
A high-ranking long term vested cult member shouldn’t be controlling the narrative of other exiting members. Keith’s best male friend shouldn’t be controlling the narrative. HBO made an unethical short-sighted decision.
Who was trying to aggressively recruit Gregory Peck’s daughter? That’s an interesting story. It must implicate a protected favorite on The Frank Report.
Who is that protected favorite?
Gregory Peck’s daughter?
Oh the drama. My head is swelling and I don’t know which one.
I’m glad India was brave enough to make a movie from her perspective. Everyone in DOS was a victim and perpetrator. Keith used the Stanford experiment about the prisoners/guards to know that they would take their roles to heart. India’s documentary may help others (Nxivm 5/Dossier) who are still under the sway of Nxivm to heal from this cult. It is a public service in helping the public understand how this can happen to otherwise intelligent, sane people. Cowards like Kristin Kreuk just slithered away and hid under a rock.
“Kristin Kreuk just slithered away and hid under a rock”
I suppose we’ll never get Kreuk’s multi-hour self-serving taxpayer-funded documentary of the journey of a naive young actress hoping to overcome her shyness only to find herself becoming the recruiting face of a sex cult with “wife” swapping and sexual “tribute.” She’s safe under her rock.
How can it be that after 13 hours of The Vow and Seduced that this semi-famous face of Nxivm is barely mentioned? Only a cover-up can explain this.
==the recruiting face of a sex cult with “wife” swapping and sexual “tribute.” She’s safe under her rock.
Now there’s a fantastical description on par with anything put out by Stephen King.
Nxivm used celeb members as recruiting tools, and Kreuk’s name was probably the most famous for young actress types and wannabes.
India said there was a lot of partner swapping among Nxivm couples at the time Kreuk and Hildreth were members.
I’m curious to know more about this. How does it work when men are allowed to have multiple partners, but women aren’t?
Because the Nxivm people involved with these documentaries are friends of Kristin Kreuk and do not want people to know what she did and knew about. These same Nxivm people don’t want Kreuk criticized because the same things that apply to her apply to them. They all knew shit. The difference with Kreuk is she had fame and helped build up the cult and then did nothing to help fight it. Not a single retweet on Twitter or private conversations with journos. She feels no moral responsibility. Her name convinced people to ignore what was out there. None of these docs have mentioned anything about Kreuk that has been spoken about here.
Sure. The government also covered up Kristin Kreuk’s wrongdoings too. They had no problems going after Ally Mack and Clare Bronfman, but Kristin Kreuk was off limits. It’s a big conspiracy of friends and others hiding the things she did and protecting her. Maybe she gave some of them blow jobs, access to the vagina, or paid them loads of cash.
Or it’s more likely she wasn’t as involved and just didn’t do anything. Her name may have been more visible because she was more famous or maybe it was propped up by others in the cult, but her participation in it simply didn’t correspond in the way that others deeper into it did.
Both documentaries dealt mostly with how DOS brought down Keith, or India’s personal journey into DOS. The lack of Kreuk’s name coming up more indicates she wasn’t in Nxivm’s inner circle, at least during this period.
Kreuk was mostly working away from the Albany area during the DOS years. Although the most significant mention of her was in The Vow when Mark wondered if she might have been approached for DOS and maybe that was what kept her away from Nxivm and Albany.
Or as Anon hints, maybe Kreuk kept her involvement out of the documentaries by giving head to every male and female executive at HBO and Starz. After all, she was in a sex cult for years so must have learned some skills.
Hi, Kristin!
Hi, Kristin!
Episode 3 of Seduced uses a tree to explain the masters and slaves, and there’s a character named X on the far right of the tree that might be Kreuk? There’s also a lot of interviewees who’s faces are blurred out. Voices altered. Wondering which one is Kreuk… or Rosario Dawson… or Grace Park…
Hmm…interesting to know why Madame X was the only DOS master not identified.
Frank….?
Seduced added a deeper understanding to the horrors going on in this cult. It may be hard for India to wrap her head around the fact that although he is a male of an older age than her, he too was lied to and manipulated. I don’t think he meant any harm keeping her in Nxivm or had anything but good intentions for her. He believed in the benefits of ESP so blindly like many others. Everyone drank the kool-aid and depending on what was wanted from you, by Keith, there were different flavors, but it was ALL poison.
Vultures fighting over the carcass of NXIVM.
Or, survivors explaining what happened.
These NXIVM people should get on with their lives instead of wallowing in their self-proclaimed victimhood.
Who are these NXIVM people you mean? Everybody has the right to speak, and also to speak about what was done to them and who they blame or had a part in it, in every possible way. If you don’t want to read or hear this, why are you here?
Nutjob-
Shadow seems to be an old testament type of guy. He does not care for the teaching of forgiveness from the New Testament.
Yada yada yada? Such brevity, Shadow. We shall watch the yadas mount. What else is new?
Shivani:
Both Vicente and India Oxenberg could have and should have been indicted.
Vicente edited videotapes that were used in a civil suit against Rick Allan Ross.
That is obstruction of justice.
India Oxenberg exploited the labor of foreign girls who were illegal aliens.
India managed an operation called “Details” that used the labor of alien girls/
India could have been indicted for immigration and labor law violations.
These two individuals should stop crying victim and get down on their knees to thank God for avoiding indictment.
Vicente was rewarded, as is typically done, for flipping on Raniere – Oxenberg didn’t, so she should have been prosecuted – but Hollyweird types, and she is a semi-royal as well, are often given a break. LOL
Why’d U flip on Amway? Not make make bank?
Scott found out about Amway’s tool scam. LOL
Shivani-
I love many of your comments. Do not worry: no will accuse you of the crime of brevity.
NXIVM was: Victims victimizing victims. Eventually, a victim would see the light, and eject. Some of the brave victims would try to help other victims eject. Some really brave victims would try to stop Raniere from victimizing more people.
That’s pretty much how cults work – on a very basic level.
Oh, Nut Job, you mean vixens vilifying villains.
At this point, I prefer focussing on India directing her ire toward the Salzmans, particularly Nancy.
Me too
I have not watched Seduced or The Vow. I do not plan to. I would watch more documentaries about Frank, however.
Frank: I am curious why all those women stayed at your house? India’s mom, also the mother of Raniere’s first child reported staying at your house.
Will there be a TV show on Frank Parlato and how he stole away all the nice moms from Raniere, while taking down NXVIM on the side???? Will Mariana the mom be next on your list?
There is an old, and ancient rule that the winner of a duel is responsible for the children of the man he slayed.
You both gave me a good laugh here
hahaha 🙂
You probably invented this, or you have established this rule for yourself.
One should always think before they write. Although when one writes anonymously, it is not so much an imperative. It is an old rule of honor that the winner of a duel has some duty to the family of the slain. It was often an unwritten law – a matter of simple honor. However, it was embodied in law in later times. As, for example, the old California Civil Code, Section 3347. “If any person slays or permanently disables another person in a duel in this state, the slayer must provide for the maintenance of the surviving spouse or spouse of the person slain or permanently disabled, and for the minor children, in such manner and at such cost, either by aggregate compensation in damages to each, or by a monthly, quarterly, or annual allowance, to be determined by the court.”
Duels are long since abolished and punishable. These rules are, therefore, absurd. You do not need them.
Bringing Keith to justice for crimes he has committed is not a duel. Duels have fixed rules that had to be followed. With Raniere, there were no rules, he always cheated.
I am Arron Burr!!!
So….Lauren?
Oxenberg isn’t a child and are you paying Keeffe to raise her son? LOL
No, I am not paying Keeffe.
Hey [Sh** H**d]!!!
Not everyone has to pay 4 ass.
That wasn’t the topic. LOL
Scott
Mrs. Oxenberg (the mom) is hot.
[redacted]
Mexican Lady,
Rumor has it Frank gets more ass than a toilet seat at Burger King.
— I am curious why all those women stayed at your house?
Frank Parlato does not kiss and tell. He writes anonymous comments on porn sites.
OMG. “Frank gets more ass than a toilet seat at Burger King.” I am not sure if I will ever stop laughing.
Why can’t women, victims, survivors, witnesses, mothers be at Frank’s house? Both sides probably needed something. They helped Frank in his investigation, and he helped them get back on their feet.
Did Vicente get a cut of the cost of the courses he promoted to Oxenberg? Most likely he did; that’s also one of the nearly-hidden secrets of Scientology (and that no one expects of a “church”), that a significant driving force is a commission system in which staff and members profit off of selling others on doing courses (and, in the case of Scientology, even making “donations”).
As I see a number of others have already addressed, it’s, of course, complicated. Particularly in a multi-tiered system like a cult, people can be both victims and perpetrators. Steeped in a system of selfishness and ends-justifies-the-means thinking, they often only do the right thing and finally defect when they become the subject of intolerable treatment and exploitation themselves or at least become personal witness to outrageous abuses and inhumanity.
Vicente did finally do the right thing, and had the fortitude to break with the group and his indoctrination, and came forward and help to put an end to the abuses, for which he deserves due credit. But one of the things that I think is telling about the actual depth of sincerity and remorse of both Vicente and Edmondson, is that neither has gone so far as to offer any sort of restitution to those of off whom they profited, not even sharing any of their earnings from recent media projects about their involvement.
—But one of the things that I think is telling about the actual depth of sincerity and remorse of both Vicente and Edmondson is that neither has gone so far as to offer any sort of restitution to those of off whom they profited, not even sharing any of their earnings from recent media projects about their involvement.
I agree completely!!!!
Unfortunately, the two of them were Espians and not Christians. I mean that sincerely. They are both like porcelain. Lovely on the outside and hollow on the inside. The entire documentary never illuminates the wrong that Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson committed. They are both poster children for LA, California.
They aren’t from there, they’re foreigners. It’s a rather gigantic town, the tumbleweeds from out of town don’t dictate the lives of working people.
It’s the newbies off the bus that fall for this BS. It’s the ones that gravitate from everywhere else, fresh meat to sell and when the fresh meat gets stale, sell the story of the fresh meat on the way down. It’s a vortex for victims and predators and as David Cross summed up what it’s like living in LA, https://youtu.be/niEle5l_LpQ.
No, they aren’t indicative of LA but they do, however, have a lovely float on the Parade of Delusion.
I really hope they are not parties in the civil suit. IMO the bulk of any settlement money should go to those who were legally harassed – Toni, Frank, Susan, Rick etc. rather than the DOS women. Those are the people whose lives and finances were turned upside down completely unwillingly for many years, where as the DOS women did not necessarily suffer financially or for near as long and also got themselves into the mess. I am appalled that there is no criminal charges for abusing the legal system in frivolous or predatory way.
I mean I hate to break it to you but neither of them actually made the documentary and it was made in real time.
Its called Cinema Véréte (I think). It took I think three years? I heard to fully film and edit. So they didn’t have creative license over it. The director was a friend of Mark’s but originally he just wanted to make a film about NXIM and some of the controversy and then it just kind of blew up.
This kind of filming is the camera is just like another person in the room viewing like a spectator as things happen. We don’t know what will happen next. We just go along for the ride. So how they are portrayed is because we are only seeing that snapshot of the journey and what they choose to share.
Whereas India’s documentary is done in a whole different style. Hers has a more poetic feel juxtaposed with narrative story telling.
Mark, nor did anyone appearing in The Vow get paid for the show.
However, India was an Executive Producer of Seduced and rumored to have made $200,000 for that position. She also got a book deal with an advance of at least $150,000 – and her mom got a book deal.
Being an Oxinberg pays well when leaving a cult.
Will India pay restitution to her DOS slave, the Rabinow family or her gopher glas?
Other DOS slaves who experience worse received not such great deals other than Edmondson, first to show her brand also got a book deal.
The DOJ will pay restitution packages and India is also involved in a civil lawsuit. I think she will come out well ahead of the money she lost in NXIVM.
Anyone who thinks anyone left NXIVM with any money is crazy.
Running a center was expensive, and they always ran in the red. The same courses India complained about taking, everyone was pressured into taking.
The only ones with a nice lifestyle were Raniere and most inner circle. The ones who knew all the illegal activities.
That wasn’t Mark, Sarah, or Bonnie. They didn’t even know DOS was happening.
You can never understand a cult until you have been in one, most cult experts don’t understand NXIVM. I listen to some of them and roll my eyes. Their cult must have been Candyland
I realize that some of the projects may not have paid people for participation, while others did pay for different roles – but if, for instance, something along the lines of a fund to help out the worst-off victims had been set up, Vicente could then have at least asked the production to donate to that, and might have gotten something since it frames things a bit differently. The real point is that they haven’t even taken the first step in that direction, for anything like that to even be a possibility to pursue.
And you have a good point, Vicente and Edmondson likely aren’t left with any money from NXIVM – and in various ways their participation in the cult has probaby also hurt their current and future earnings prospects. But again, they’ve done nothing about any sort of recompense, and certainly for instance it wouldn’t have killed Edmondson to donate say 10% of the proceeds from her book, which might then have nudged the Oxenbergs to do the same even if Vicente couldn’t chip in. These were people who talked about the group ideology such as making the world a better place, and about “possibilities,” but we can see that when the rubber hits the road they really aren’t very aware of how to put such things into practice in the real world.
AnonyMaker-
—Vicente get a cut of the cost of the courses he promoted to Oxenberg.
Both Sarah and Mark made money off of India. It’s a fact.
I have no idea how much. Mark and Sarah were top recruiters at one time.
I assume it was half of the respective course price.
I have a feeling anyway that Mark wouldn’t mind in some way, “paying” for what he did to India, and others (ok this feeling comes from his reaction he has in The Vow, when he forbid himself to laugh about the bed dog story, and it’s a doc, it’s produced by Mark, and it may be staged, but still, I have this feeling).
The question would be then, what does India want?
If she wants the world to understand Mark was (is) not a saint, I think most of us already did. And a word now from her saying that she understands why he did what he did, and that she has also done bad things under the same influence, would be right in time before Mark is burnt to the flame.
If she wants to put him in jail, she belongs with him then.
Agree with this perspective. I’d guess Mark also agrees with at least the first half.
He hasn’t owned up to anything other than to cover his ass by cooperating with the federal government to prevent his own 10 years of criminal and unethical actions to be dismissed in exchange for information and evidence. That happened after he made his wife convince him. It was either play along with illegal black mail that had accelerated, because black mail was part of the culture already, or go to jail with Keith. No, there’s nothing yet that implies he would be willing to acknowledge his culpability. What he HAS done so far is ignore it and and present a heavily edited version of himself as the truth. A liar and a fraud.
Nope, they aren’t on the same level of culpability. Like other high value targets, everyone around her was making sure she didn’t leave and drank the kool aid. They created a façade for her, one Mark was privy to and an active participant in.
They’re all sueing NXIVM and it’s affiliate shell companies. Though, I imagine all the money laundering and tax evasion will be brought up as a defense for paying less to some claimants.
Frank, you are the rarest of the rare, a hero from another time. You took down a literal antichrist (liar false messiah) and you continually show broad compassion (what the actual Jesus would do), while still digging for finer, nuanced distinctions. Your integrity and dedication are second to none. I’ve followed this from afar since stumbling on your website 5 years ago but never commented. You deserve awards and honors and accolades and dare I say tribute. You are a jewel shining in this age of darkness. But my guess is you could care less about that and mostly just getting a good day’s (life’s) work done.
This is what I have been saying for a long time. Our Frank is not only heroic. He is a wonderful journalist, a sustaining source of the greatest value not only as a man but as a writer who has done an award worthy body of work. That is saying the least.
Someone in my family has just received an award for journalism. I love that person dearly, for more than forty years. The award, from PBS out west, has been more than earned. We are thrilled.
Yet Frank Parlato is one of my complete dreamboats as an investigative journalist. I listen to many everyday, all over the world. And still I say Frank Parlato is one of the very best.
To this same end, I’d like to start the process of getting Frank nominated for the Pulitzer. If anyone would like to assist, can you please have Frank forward me your email address, and I can contact you offline. Thanks.
Snorlax – thanks for your high opinion of my work. It is very gratifying. You work for years and years on something and finally, it comes together and that is the real reward. William Saroyan refused the Pulitzer for his play, “The Time of Your Life,” saying he was opposed in principle to awards in the arts. “Such awards vitiate and embarrass art at its very source.”
I don’t agree. I like awards.
I am still not certain that all aspects of the case of Keith Raniere are finished. For one, there may have been some due process violations in his case, which even if he is 100 guilty, should still be explored. On the other hand, there may be some serious crimes for which he was not charged and I am investigating these. You might ask, why bother at this point, he is going away for life? The reason is for the victims – or rather the families of Gina Hutchinson, Kristin Snyder, Barbara Jeske, and Pam Cafritz.
Much appreciate your continued investigation on behalf of the families who long for closure, Frank. Pulitzer worthy, I agree.
I put this up on an earlier post. We would need to get busy..
https://entrysite.pulitzer.org
Need to move quite quickly, the entry deadline is late Jan.
Happy to pay/contribute to the entry fee.
Questions: Contact the Pulitzer Prize office at 212-854-3841 or pulitzer@pulitzer.org
Perhaps Snorlax FMN, NG, NJ, Heidi as your stateside, you could call the number and ask all the pertinent questions. Totally up for this. Frank stands a good chance…Great Idea.
It’s probably a longshot but no harm in seeing if the work to bring Keith Raniere to justice, a successful work, is worthy of consideration by those who judge these things.
Indeed. This site has been the most remarkable portal of trusted information unfolding in real-time. This community of responses is also its own ecosystem. I know few people in real life who find this whole story so unbearably compelling, so I happily scroll to see all the different thoughts you all write here. I often wonder how the hell this onion keeps on revealing new layers. I’m grateful Frank is there/here to be an actual adult in the room…
I don’t know whether it is better to respond or not. Responding by saying I don’t deserve it is false humility; saying I agree with every word that you said, sounds arrogant [which I can be at times] and not responding seems to lack appreciation for your kind words. So, Shivani, thanks.
How about simply accepting our compliments, Frank?
I believe I speak for every one of the regular commenters…
You are a hero. You took some big risks and helped many people.
You more than deserve a few compliments.
You fought a war that lasted more than four years.
Thanks for your comment. I don’t deserve the accolades. I got into this because I was attacked by Keith Raniere and Clare Bronfman, so I was not a knight in shining armor. I was fighting not to be a victim. I made a lot of mistakes in this and learned a lot and a certain victory came and that gives satisfaction.
Then you realize that in going after your target in war there was a good deal of collateral damage and you try to fix that too.
So overly modest, in the 2+ years I have been following the Frank Report, you have never once played the self-righteous-asshole card. That’s why I respect you.
Everyone can point fingers, etc. It’s easy to get swept up in the drama and narrative these documentaries portray but, in the end, they’re left with what they did, what was done to them, and what will likely be very bleak career prospects going forward.
Like putting away the leftovers and folding chairs when the party ends.
To say that this isn’t complicated is perhaps the understatement of the year.
But my takeaway from Seduced is that India Oxenberg is trying to squirm away from the truth of the situation. And the truth is:
She sex-trafficked other women.
She ordered other women to submit collateral.
She coerced other women into sexual activities with KR, which they would not have otherwise willingly entered into because she was following orders from her master.
Her consent may have been removed from aspects of this situation but she full-throatedly took away the consent of other people and then refused to admit that she was doing was illegal and immoral. Yes, she was duped but she was still a person with the ability to say no, to leave, and not participate. She could have put down the gun and not fired it. Instead, she chose to fire it. Now, she wants to pretend there were never bullets in the gun. I can’t decide how insulting this is to our collective intelligence but it’s pretty insulting.
Instead, she squirms away from her role in things. She dances around how she was an aggressor. She was a victim, to be sure, but she did terrible things that are not at question. They are a matter of public record. She wants to be seen as the poor lost little lamb taken in by bad bad wolves. And yes, to an extent, she was but then she put on the wolf costume herself and was all too thrilled to hurt other lambs.
Frankly, her refusal to be an adult about this and admit her failings while pointing the finger at everyone else is disgusting and destroys much of the credibility and moral high ground she’s attempting to take. It’s craven and it’s cowardly and she deserves all the public shame and derision that results. She did criminal things and just happened to not be charged; that’s the only difference between where she is at this moment vs. Allison Mack as even her own mother admits that her daughter did these things.
I don’t care particularly about Vicente other than to say that he is trying in his way to be accountable for all of it.
India Oxenberg cannot say the same.
This poor little lamb is a craven coward.
[redacted]
Mark Vicente ran what is the equivalent of an MRA MGTOW, Incel group, which are classified as terrorist hate groups out in the real world.
I’m going to say that again.
Up until his wife had to beg, plead and convince him something was wrong, and had to supply evidence to refute his perception of the group, he ran an oppressive hate group that directly contributed to sex trafficking, rape, rape culture, fraud, tax evasion, money laundering, evidence tampering, propaganda fabrication, etc. He ran what is considered terror driven hate directed at women. Mark taught women in NXIVM what other women escape from in other countries. Mark taught, enforced and thought normal, what is considered human rights violations everywhere outside of the cult.
This is Mark’s second oppressive insane cult. Second. How about Mark isn’t allowed to be in charge of reality or ethics. I wouldn’t allow him to operate a stove or heavy machinery.
For sure, everyone that stuck around after the first class also climbed on board with barbaric regressive, frankly dumb views about men and women. They didn’t make a 9-hour documentary that was spent glossing over, lying and hiding it.
[redacted] Can you imagine being told you’re wrong after everyone around you was trained to smile even though they were screaming inside, and everyone told you how great you are, because you’re slightly less horrible than Keith. That’s not a high bar.
My feelings about Vicente are a complicated stew of things but I view those things as separate from what Oxenberg is attempting and what Oxenberg is attempting is to effectively pin the gravitas of responsibility on other people except herself.
The fact that Vicente has ownership in a great deal of this cannot be escaped but I will note that he has at least been public in ownership of a great deal of it. This, so far, cannot be said for Oxenberg.
Beyond that, as a woman, what causes me more revulsion about Oxenberg and Mack and Clyne and all the women involved in sex trafficking, stripping other women of consent and dignity, and traumatizing them is that they knew better and did it anyway. It’s one thing when a man rapes a woman. It’s a craven, terrible act that cannot be forgiven. But these women helped this terrible man rape and traumatize additional women and in some cases, children.
I can’t look away from that and neither should anyone else.
They are both wrong.
Oxenberg would like to convince us that only one of them is and that’s far, far, far from the truth.
Agreed, and Mark left when he realized women were being victimized/abused, even while not knowing if any charges would ever be brought, while India stayed loyal for months after criminal charges were brought. Big difference in my opinion.
I think this is the forth time you’ve edited my response to outright misogyny. You allow it and then edit the responses to it. YOU bet your ass I’m going to talk about that for a long long time. Everywhere.
I only edited out your insults and attacks on other commenters. They should be able to disagree with your opinion without you personally insulting them. Make all the arguments you want on the topic of misogyny without attacking people with the opposite views.
Well said, Anon – I’ve done a lot of exit counseling over the years and I’ve seen this behavior numerous times. India is definitely downplaying her involvement and her status within the group by way of the documentary. She wants people to look at her as an innocent party and she wasn’t – NONE of them were, KAR made sure that just about everybody in the group had dirty hands in one form or another. It’s an ultimate form of control.
Mark downplayed his involvement as well – and I think his decision to move out of the country entirely tells us just how much he fears the immunity of his statements to lock up his leader will disappear and he’ll end up behind bars as well. I’ve dealt with a lot of cult members and I can honestly say I have never met one who, when confronted with the statement “I could make it a rapeable baby” would have stayed to hear the rest of the ‘lesson’.
The fact that the members just sat there and didn’t flinch when he said that shows how deeply they were programmed. Does it make the illegal behaviors and activities okay? Of course not, but they WERE programmed, their free will was greatly tampered with.
KAR, the mastermind behind this whole mess, made sure their brains were completely scrambled. I was chatting w/ a colleague about this group and its victims and he pretty much said what I was thinking: These people have MANY years of therapy ahead of them and the longer they put that off, the harder it will be for them.
Thank god someone else sees it straight. So many people pouring sympathy all over India, attacking Vicente…or vice versa… They’re both terrible! When I watched these docs, the thing that made me angry was how irresponsible all these adults were, how much it cost for our government & courts to arrest & extradite KR, clean up this whole mess.
KR isn’t a boogie man to me, not some evil genius, he’s just a con man who found some willing marks. My outrage is almost totally with his followers and disciples, including India and Vicente
India is still going through a lot of mental and emotional processing about her experiences. How she thinks and feels is going to be changeable, including how she sees not only others but herself. This is going to happen for a lot of years. It is not settled overnight.
The same could be happening with Vicente. It is natural. Recovering oneself can be pretty subtle or it can be intense. None of us are inside of him or India. There is a lot to learn and to see anew with shifts of perspective. Insight can come in waves of rather sudden understanding or quite gently, sometimes or gradually.
I don’t see that focusing upon conflict is necessarily useful. It doesn’t matter that much that they have differing viewpoints.
Their experiences and roles were not alike.
Nobody has to be right vs. wrong about it. Both are healing, working and both are theatrically inclined and are using their talents, hopefully freely and without anyone else’s undue influence. Both efforts are also group efforts as well, with different production teams, etc.
Even with the differing viewpoints and experiences, there is room for whatever each has been working to produce.
While I might feel more comfortable with one version over the other of their work, that too is personal, I guess.
At heart, I am simply more at home with India Oxenberg. That does not mean to me that India is right and Vicente is prevaricating.
I suppose that too my own preference is a personal response. Maybe it is also because I have seen too many Vicentes in life. Oops. How did that pop out onto the screen? I want to be respectful and fair.
I believe the issue is that India was 19 when she became involved, and so entered adulthood incorporating the Nx philosophies. Like the Fernandez sisters and the other young girls, there is the element of much older adults deliberately grooming that blunted her critical thinking skills.
That is certainly something to include in any analysis, the youth of some who became entangled.
Thank you, Frank. I have no doubt that your take on the apparent disconnect between The Vow and Seduced will be fair to all involved.
No story, no event, no experience can be defined in just black or white. This is also true for the horrible things that happened within NXIVM. From one perspective and moment in time, Vicente is the perpetrator. From another perspective and at another time, he was a victim himself discovering what he gotten himself into. He then did what is seen (by most) as a sort of redemption and helped to bring down an “evil” (yes, I think that is the correct word here) organization and its leaders. It is even more difficult to judge who is a victim and who is not. Was Allison Mack or Lauren Salzman only evil or were they also victims? I find it very hard to judge them being only one or the other.
India WAS a victim of Mark.
He was a leader who was the first to use the manipulative tactics of the cult to keep her there. By India’s own admission, it was Mark, Bonnie and Sarah who were her main contacts in the cult until a few years later. Watching both doc series and having listened to her book, I don’t feel like she is saying anything untrue about Mark. She is speaking her truth about his role in this entire story. And the truth is, Mark was a key leader and enabler of KR. Sure, he finally left and is now trying to atone for his participation – which should also not be undermined. Raniere is in jail in large part because of Mark, his footage, and his testimony.
Trying to blame India for him looking bad because she was telling her story – of which Mark was very much a part of – is misguided blame. Mark had The Vow to show his side of the story, which is extremely one-sided to be honest. And India has her story to tell, and that very much included Mark manipulating her for years. The entire situation is messy, but Mark can’t re-write his own history here. He comes off as creepy in both doc-series, largely because NXIVM is creepy and the steeped misogyny is mind-blowing. Mark bought into that. Until he didn’t.
India is allowed to place some blame on Mark, while also being able to feel grateful that he and Bonnie helped her mom. But Mark should also stop trying to present himself as a Saint. They ALL sat there while Raniere proselytized about rape and abuse in an effort to normalize it and not a single person in the audience blinked an eye. That’s what we are dealing with here. Mark was also never sexually abused by, put on a starvation diet by or monitored 24/7 by Raniere. Perhaps Mark should stop being so self-centered about how he appears in this story and instead have some empathy for the victims he had a hand in grooming.
“Perhaps Mark should stop being so self-centered about how he appears in this story and instead have some empathy for the victims he had a hand in grooming.”
I’m not challenging the substance of this statement where it comes to Vicente. I am however calling exception to the fact that it’s beyond disputed fact that India Oxenberg sex trafficked at least one other person we know about. It isn’t fact but highly likely there are more she is not owning to because she is still in danger of being charged with federal crimes related to sex-trafficking.
Thus, you have to also apply this statement to Oxenberg. She’s currently on a media tour establishing her credibility in the light of very manipulated person who made victim. And that may be true but that is only half the truth of the entire story which she is very focused on not fully telling, as it risks the way she wants to be seen as someone who is blameless and highly sympathetic.
She is sympathetic.
But where she committed terrible crimes against another human being, she should be blamed.
If you are in any way equating the power India had over some other Nxivm member with the power held over her, I think you are not seeing her participation as clearly as you might think.
Sure, she is guilty of various crimes, which her family will do everything to prevent her from having to pay for perhaps the way you’d like to see. Sure, there’s the inequality of the system at play. And at the same time, nothing she did will ever equal the inequities she faced.
If you don’t understand how the world works when you’re a young woman who hasn’t pursued a formal education, and instead becomes sucked in by the lies told you — the coerced persuasive methods, the fear she and most other young women endured to be part of Raniere’s cult — then you’re apparently blaming the weakest members of this cult for that which was done to them. Victim-shaming is pointless when the victim was a young woman without the strength of her own convictions or the life experience that might have protected her from this insidious group.
If you think this through, I believe you will place the blame where it belongs.
actually most of the women at Nexium were almost the age of India when they started taking classes at Nexium
I’m not holding it as equivalent. I just think that people are too quick to excuse Oxenberg’s role in things when much of it’s established in public record via the criminal proceedings and not really in dispute.
Oxenberg was both victim and aggressor but she came into the cult from circumstances that are far and away exceptional of most of the other victims, save the Bronfmans and a few young adult children of Mexican elites. In that regard, she was far from weak. She had resources and opportunities available to her that are far beyond the grasp of many people and have the opportunity to avail herself of those resources. That she didn’t, it’s a complicated answer but not one so complicated that it excuses her role in things when you consider there were members in his horrorshow who were literally trafficked from another country and held hostage. They had no agency and no consent and on that score, Oxenberg had plenty of both and chose to exercise that agency and that consent in ways that victimized other people and made her more vulnerable to victimization.
It’s not victim blaming when you have every exit and choose not to take it. She made a series of choices, under unsavory and dangerous influences but she had enough free will and agency to make other choices that would have avoided sex trafficking and victimizing other people. She declined to make those choices.
There is also proof to show that Nicki Clyne – a first line slave who was never charged – was involved even more deeply than India. Why she was never indicted I will never know.
The big difference that I see no one mentioning here is that India Oxenberg was 19 years old when she joined, and Mark Vicente was a grown-ass 40-year-old man. Frank mentions that India was a grown adult, but come on man, she was a *teenager*. Mark had a whole lifetime of adulthood and couldn’t have not known on some level that manipulating and billing teenage marks out of all their money was immoral.
The larger issue that people have with Mark Vicente, though, is even today he is relentless in offloading all of his immoral decisions to Keith Raniere “leading him to believe”, while conveniently leaving out how his own internal misogyny and sexism made Keith’s theories so easy to swallow. In doing that, he’s effectively minimizing the true horror of what happened at NXIVM, and who the most victimized and vulnerable people were. He clearly held a lot of power and influence within the organization and not questioning Keith Raniere’s misogyny allowed him to benefit. I have yet to see him examine or cop to how self-interest made him complicit. Instead, it’s “I was just a good guy who wanted to do good things.” That’s horseshit because good guys wanting to do good things don’t generally get a commission at the end. It just doesn’t pass any smell test.
Lastly, the fact that Vicente seems so focussed on making Raniere pay, and not making himself pay by doing the hard work of examining and destroying the global misogyny that Keith is just a small part of? That to me shows he doesn’t grasp the harm he’s done and is still acting in self-interest.
The biggest thing this guy needs to realize is that he’s not just a good guy led astray — he has underlying character defects that he needs to name aloud and make visible amends for (as do we all, but right now we’re talking about the guy with “whistleblower” in his Twitter bio.)
Honestly, watching Seduced, I understood she was describing how things were at the time, and that indeed Mark played a role in her deeper involvement with the cult, but I assumed it was more of a description of the story and then she would end telling the world how can someone may have been an “abuser” like Mark and also become a helper when taken outside the cult influence.
Now, if she is indeed and currently going after Mark Vicente, I think she needs to be reminded of some facts…
India forgot she recruited 2 other slaves, while I understand she felt she had no choice of doing so at the time, can’t she understand Mark felt the same when he pressured her to stay and get more involved with Nxivm?
Also, if we are looking for first responsibility, isn’t her own mother the one who took her into the cult, and got her to take the 2 first intensives?
I’m actually waiting to see the last episode of Seduced or to hear from India about her position regarding Mark. But if it turns out she IS working to take Mark Vicente down when she would still be inside the cult without him, and would have been in the cult to begin with, even without him, I’ll stop feeling sorry for her.
(side note for moderators: I know my English is crap. I’m not a native speaker, so feel free to edit my posts when needed)