This is our next in our series on Mark Vicente’s testimony in the trial of Keith Alan Raniere.
In this post, we explore the fact that Raniere systemically starved or semi-starved his women. It may have been that he preferred super skinny women – or that he liked them weak and muddle-headed – both of which are the result of 800 or 500 calories per day diets.
It was part of his love of destroying people and controlling them both – in order to destroy them,
He was a real monster and if anybody feels a little sorry for this monster possibly going to prison for the rest of his life, read on.
AUSA Mark Lesko is examining Vicente.
Imagine the effect the following had on the jury.
Q Do you recall at a certain point in time certain people in the NXIVM community developing unusual physical appearances?
A Yes. That …. came to a head for me in and around December of 2015, when I became very concerned for two reasons. The one was there was so many of the examples in the education about not giving into comfort and choosing principal instead. You know, in other words, don’t go for, like, the ice cream — you know, don’t do the ice cream. Like focus on your calories. And I thought to myself, why is there this obsession with weight and calories? What is going on? Is there no other metaphor that can be used? Why it always the cake or the pizza or why is that the grand example of like you have a weakness…
And then I began to see a lot of the women just becoming rail thin, I mean, to the point that it just looked unhealthy to me. They looked pale, and … it was beginning to look almost like their skin was translucent. And I saw the kind of food they were eating, where they were eating the same kind of food again and again where their fingers were turning the color of food. They were eating cucumbers all the time or squash…..
When I asked, ‘Why that?’ ‘Well, because it’s low calories and it fills me up,’ kind of thing. And I just got concerned because everybody just looked — just really unhealthy — not everybody. Some of the women just looked really unhealthy. They were looking skeletal. I could start to see their bones under their flesh, and I thought to myself, ‘something’s not right here.’
Q Was there anybody in particular who looked exceedingly skinny?
A My greatest concern back then was Allison Mack. I was very concerned. I … was spending a lot of time with her back then, and I just couldn’t understand why … her weight was dropping so much. And also accompanying the weight loss was sort of this tired, kind of out-of-it look. You know, she sometimes couldn’t focus very well. And to me, it looked like a kind of malnutrition. So I was deeply concerned about that, and so I went to talk about Raniere about it.
Q So you … had a discussion with the defendant. What did he say?
A Well, I went to see him. I think he was at that point living at 21 Oregon Trail. I went to see him, and I said, ‘I’m concerned that all these people have this idea that skinniness is the ultimate objective.’ And I said to him, ‘It also worries me deeply given that in this society right now, with the obsession, with the bodies and models and everything, like I don’t think it’s healthy to tell a woman that her weight is tied to her enlightenment or her growth or whatever. It’s just unhealthy…. It’s bad. Women, and especially young women have enough issues already with their appearance given the culture we live in, why do that?’ And he said to me, ‘Well, you know, I work with different people in different ways, and there’s different reasons for different things.’ … It wasn’t making any sense whatsoever.
And I said, “But Allison — you know, what about Allison? She… looks terrible. … if this is her having some kind of breakthrough, I don’t what’s going on. Then I don’t understand breakthroughs because she looks horrible.’ And I said … ‘she looks broken.’ And he said, ‘Well, I’m trying to break her’. And I was like ‘uh-huh. Okay. Well, she’s not looking healthy.’ And he said, ‘Well, she’s still getting her period.’
And I was like,’ Okay.’ I wasn’t sure where else to go because I … was thinking to myself, ‘Well, you know, you can take a pill and still do a whole bunch of things,’ … But in the end, I just backed away, because I couldn’t get any clear answers, and – I felt … something’s wrong and I can’t quite put my finger on what it is.
Q In addition to Allison Mack, do you recall any other women in the community who looked skinny?
A Many — many of the people that … had some kind of a close relationship with him. Some of them that might be in the inner circle were extremely skinny. … Daniela Padilla…Monica Duran, a number of the… women that were spending time with … Allison Mack…- I was concerned about… India’s weight.
There seemed to be a kind of a club of I young women gathering around Allison Mack and they just didn’t look healthy. I mean… maybe they were healthy by Fashion Week’s standards, you know, which is not healthy in my opinion, but they just did not at all look good. They were just obsessed with eating as little as possible, and they would literally measure their calories on a scale. There was all this measuring going on. And there was also this obsessive penitence that they would do if they messed something up. You know, so if somebody was on a certain number of calories and they messed something up, then they would cut their calories. You know, and when I was hearing that people were cutting it down to 500 calories or 300 calories, something’s not… right.
Yes, something was not right. Not right at all. And this was the start of the end of Raniere. Mark Vicente saw that the women were sick and it made him wonder about Keith’s infallibility.
This led to further doubts – and when he found out about the branding on top of the starving, he knew, he finally knew that it was over.
He had lost faith in Raniere – and then he took him down.
And so it goes.
Part 1 Inside the Cult – Mark Vicente Explains the Various Nxivm Groups and Subgroups
Part 2 Vicente Gives Striking Details of Nxivm Intensive – Including ‘The Fall’
Part #3 Vicente Explains More of Nxivm – From Ethical Breaches, Pride, Humiliation, Feedback, Penances, Lack of Tribute to Raniere and Shunning – and He Names Names
Part #4 Vicente Explains Society of Protectors, ‘It Was Meant to Demean Women’
Hmm, so Mark Vicente turned whistleblower, did he? My dealings with him when he threatened me and kicked me off Clare Bronfman’s ghastly house on Wakaya Island because he realised without me uttering a word that I wasn’t buying into all their evil and absolutely dumb bullshit was certainly of a man with no ethical grounding and bully boy tactics with his equally dreadfully behaved team of sidekicks. From my understanding of Mark, I would suppose he turned whistleblower before he got implicated. Needless to say, I never received any form of apology from him for the terrible distress he caused; I do not think he has an ounce of decency in his repertoire. If I had been made of weaker stuff like most of the women on the so-called self-improvement course, I would still be in therapy now. Vile behaviour from the lot of them including Clare and her sister, Sara, at least I suppose the sisters did apologise although I very much doubt that it was genuine. I am delighted it has all come into the light and that no one else will sustain any harm from any of them. I am only sorry that Mark seems to escaped as a hero in this awful saga.
I’ve always thought it was obvious looking at the women Raniere kept around him, including his inner circle harem, that he had a fixation with a pubescent look, just one of the obvious signs of his being stuck in adolescent sexuality himself. They’re almost all thin and seemingly under-developed, with unsophisticated long hair. Mack may have been a particular fit, being one of those women who continue to be easily taken for teenager into their twenties, which I suspect was why she was cast on Smallville – it always particularly strikes me that she has an oddly gummy smile, looking as if her adult teeth only recently came in.
AM, I agree re: prepubescent, it’s a more boyish look, too. I think the long hair and “feminizing” demands along with that point up an internal struggle Keith has with homophobia due to gender dysmorphia that’s tied into his control issues over women and certain men.
Wondering if it’s also ever occurred to you that Clare & Sara’s brother is in the ‘diet’ business? That’s not to say they were in cahoots but occurs to me bc Keith was always competing to replace family members of his acolytes — striving to supplant and outdo their families somehow — me and my family lived a bit of this weird dynamic with my sister, Gina, when she knew Keith. It’s difficult to describe but a real factor in the paycho’s ‘takeover’ ownership pattern and a feature of extreme narcissism.
So, if I kill a child, I’m a murderer. If my neighbor tells me to kill a child, I’m a murderer. If I join a cult, and the cult leader tells me to kill a child, I’m a victim.
Why do I get the feeling this victim BS only applies to women?
I feel a lot for Vicente. The aftermath of his involvement must have been, and probably still is, painful and difficult to work through.
I salute him for his honesty and courage in putting himself on the side of justice and sincerely wish him well.
Have a good life, Vicente.
“came to a head for me in and around December of 2015”
Kinda sad that he didn’t notice it before…but then, he was probably too busy with his nose in Raniere’s butt…
For Allison, people witnessed this diet back in 2013…i suspect she wasn’t the only one.
“My greatest concern back then was Allison Mack. I was very concerned.”
Yet, he looked at her while Raniere was slowly killing her…reminds me of a certain cat ox.
She sees a young girl waking in distress like someone tried to murder her, see this same young girl run outside in the middle of the night and she is doing what?
She goes back to sleep…And in the meantime, Allison could have been run over by a vehicle or killed or raped…she had not a care in the world!
What a nice lady was this cat!
What I see is that those who could make a difference at the right moment (before it was too late) didn’t do a thing.
“But in the end, I just backed away, because I couldn’t get any clear answers”
Real hero behavior there!… She was slowly killed by Raniere and he backed away because he couldn’t get any answer…what a nice person!
He is just as bad as Raniere and shows it.
“There seemed to be a kind of a club of young women gathering around Allison Mack and they just didn’t look healthy.”
So, by the way, he says it, it’s now the victim’s fault…so he doesn’t blame Raniere for the other but Allison (while we know it’s Raniere decision)
See now why I always go against some of those heroes? Blaming a victim while he perfectly now the culprit (as he received a full confession from the professional idiot himself)
And yet, he prefers to blame a girl pushed to death.
“This led to further doubts – and when he found out about the branding on top of the starving, he knew, he finally knew that it was over.”
Well actually, to be chronologically correct, was he the one who left when Sarah left? He was the executive for the Vancouver chapter’s recruitment with her so I suspect it was more a legal liability worry than caring for anyone else but him…
He left the cult in 2017 (same weekend as Sarah did) and he claims to have seen the destruction of Allison back in 2015…even there it’s showing how much he doesn’t give a f…damn.
She was already abused to that point since 2013 from what many people witnessed!
Back in 2013, some of her friends were worried about Allison’s health and her behavior (like measuring with a small scale the amount of food she was allowed to process).
So it started way before (he had to…it was part of the process to be able to control their mind and it’s taking time to work as you have to deprive the body of certain nutriment to make the brain work in a “slave” mode).
Also, he knows about this but it’s not stopping him to dig a hole for Allison and worst, he isn’t trying to defend her while he knows the fact she was coerced.
Vicente is a pathetic idiot who just managed to dodge the bullet justice should have given him!
So like many people who are seen as heroes by fr, he is dodging his responsibilities and actually follows Raniere’s plan by blaming in on someone else…and like Raniere, mostly on a victim named Allison Mack.
The funny thing is despite the proof and many things that show and explain how Allison ended up in this position, people are idiot enough to actually follow Raniere’s plan of blaming it on her!
Heck, even the fake interview is considered as a proof against Allison while the court itself ignored it and while the interviewer pointed the coercive measure against Allison to make sure she would blame herself.
But noooooo, no coercion exercised on Allison…it’s not like Raniere had any kind of collateral on her! oh but wait, he had collateral on her, it’s actually the only person who saw her collateral released in nature. and this, by the DA…
Who sees a young girl in an adult woman over 30 years old? Miss Allison Mack was over 30 years old in 2013. This will not change as often as you repeat it, and therefore no longer a young girl. You contort reality in many ways in favor of Allison Mack, but reality cannot be changed as often as you strive.
In what position are you that you are so extensively committed to Allison Mack. Do you have a personal interest?
How is it relevant how old she was? The point is that Raniere wanted to destroy her. That is the reality!
“This led to further doubts – and when he found out about the branding on top of the starving, he knew, he finally knew that it was over.” Any ethical person might have backed out when mommy was stashing money. Good thing when the legal branding done by consenting adults happened or he’d be left stashing and stashing money unaccounted for.
Nearly as bad as a brand near the carpet that matches the drapes.
Gray hair is natural. A brand near a vagina signifying that one is a sex slave is not. So no, not anywhere near as a bad, if it can be considered so at all (only as a sign of aging).
Who would pick on a little old lady? LOL
I wonder what Sultan thinks of this….LOL
Not to repeat myself but this focus on thinness related to spiritual growth has always alarmed me — it foretells a pattern Keith repeated from at least the time my sister, Gina Hutchinson, was ‘suicided’ or, some say, murdered.
Gina suddenly, inexplicably dropped over 30 pounds in the months prior to her death in October 2002, while living in Clifton Park, just blocks away from parts of the NX compound. She’d known Keith Raniere and Kristin Keeffe for 20 years since Keith stole her virginity at the age of 14 and wrote in her journal that Keith “had a profound effect on her life.” Gina had also chopped off her hair and bleached it. There is much evidence she was taking private, ESP/NX EM’s — she left a handwritten, NXIVM EM chart dated August 2, 2002 at the ‘suicide’ scene — a Buddhist monastery in Woodstock, a couple of hours south of Clifton Park. She spent her last days in a motel with a jacuzzi. It’s said she had many visitors to her room that fit the description of the NX wolf pack.
There’s clear, recorded evidence Gina had had recent contact with Kristin Keeffe — who elaborately lies about this fact — Kristin even staged a grieving scene with Keith for Barbara Bouchey and Karen Unterreiner’s benefit — with the dialogue of that scene emphasizing how long it had been since they’d had any contact with Gina and how she missed her chance to be saved by them. Again, all of which is contradicted by the facts and evidence proving that at least Kristin Keeffe and, possibly, Lauren Salzman DID meet Gina in NYC in August 2002 at a Buddhist weekend retreat. There’s also, evidence Gina spent her last night alive with Keith Raniere, per Frank’s investigation and Kristin HAS admitted Keith was conditioning Gina and exploring suicide methods with her — which is substantiated by Gina’s journal writings over decades of her involvement with Keith and Kristin Keeffe.
Mark Vicente’s instincts in his concern for Allison and the other sex slaves were dead-on. Keith was patterning their destruction on what he’d so proudly achieved with Gina — through the same means and methods he experimented with on her — the sleep depravation, the starvation, the path of pain, masochism and “self-inflicted” suffering — in the name of empowerment and spiritual enlightenment. Even the reincarnation, past life recognition — Keith recognized Gina as a Goddess (and me as Atilla the Hun) — while come to find out Allison Mack supposedly Joan of Arc — don’t tell me she wasn’t targeted for destruction — for the same path the psycho sent my sister down to her ultimate “enlightenment” — with a slightly different “martyr” twist for Allison.
My regards to the rat.
That’s a very interesting point about Kristin Keeffe trying to deny the fact that she met with Gina so close to her death.
This would indicate some type of ‘culpability’ in Gina’s death —– BECAUSE there’s no reason to LIE and DENY something UNLESS it would implicate her in something negative related to Gina’s death.
I’m not sure why Frank remains silent on this topic.
Why won’t Frank acknowledge Heidi’s facts (about Kristin Keeffe) taken from Gina’s records and journals?
…And why does Frank refuse to at least ‘investigate’ whether Keeffe was lying about these things? …and WHY she may be lying?
Could it be that Frank wishes to WHITEWASH Kristin Keeffe’s involvement in the demise of Gina?
Frank doesn’t seem to wanna investigate certain aspects of NXIVM’s past.
Because he doesn’t wanna sully the reputation of a woman (Keeffe) that he assisted in 2015 and became friends with.
Frank doesn’t wanna cast suspicion on a woman who served as his ‘source’ for many things he’s reported.
It almost feels like Frank has made a deal with the devil (she-devil).
Frank doesn’t wanna risk “burning that bridge” (losing Keeffe as a source) so he just ignores these posts by Heidi and sticks his head in the sand like an ostrich.
Yet Frank talks about his reputation as a hard hitting journalist. LOL. Yeah sure.
Hard hitting journalists don’t RUN AWAY and STICK THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND when a credible accusation is made against a major player in his own documentary series (Lost Women of NXIVM).
I’m guessing that Frank will delete this post to keep Heidi from responding to it —- and to keep others from discussing it.
Oh well, at least we can go back to discussing the weather or kung flu —– or some other over-saturated, boring-as-shit topic. 🙂
Bangkok, according to Kristin Keeffe, she did not meet with Gina and that the Kristin mentioned in Heidi’s journal is another Kristin, who had an altogether different phone number. Also I do not recall reading in Gina’s journal that Gina claimed to have met with any Kristin shortly before her death. But I think it bears some further analysis.
I believe that Kristin Keeffe cared about Gina and had no role in her death. Kristin told me in an on the record interview that she believes that Gina did commit suicide but that Keith deliberately and for years set her up to do so. I tend to suspect this is true.
The biggest problem I have with blaming Kristin Keeffe is there is no evidence of her actually seeing Gina before she died.
Is there any evidence your little canary didn’t see her before she died?
Once again, women aren’t children. If this diet was unhealthy, Alison Mack and the others should never have agreed to go on it. Once on it, get off it. If “brainwashing” is an excuse, then no one is responsible for anything!
Once again, it’s a slow boil, which also includes sleep deprivation, immersion, group-think, etc. When you dismiss the criminals and blame only the victim, you are stupid. LOL
I’m sure all kinds of weird things happen in cults which is why you don’t join in the first place. If you accidentally end up in one, you see the weird shit and leave. None of these people are victims.
Most of the NXIVM people were victims, many of them also became perps. Being one does not preclude also being the other. If you think otherwise, you are simply and thoroughly stupid. LOL
You obviously D-don’t know a thing about cults… and I agree with the other Anonymous, you are stupid!
The SOLE EXCLUSIVE CULPRITS are those in command as they use therapy methods and other means to control the people they convinced….
Allison was conscious at first about the awkwardness of this whole “Community” when she was there for her first intensive.
And what happened? A person she trusted the most (as she was away from her family and had some terrible careless boyfriend) used Allison and used the trust she had in her to make her fall into the cult.
From the word of this same BF, she (Allison) disappeared for a couple of weeks with that friend and changed completely after that (I confirm that Allison changed quickly about her opinion of the cult…it wasn’t making sense but many of us believed it would be some kind of temporary phase. We were wrong)
So basically her thought processes and suspicions were functioning properly, but after a mere two weeks Allison bought the hole spew hook, line and sinker, because through no fault of her own, she became so weak she lost them and couldn’t change her mind for almost ten years. Yeah, that makes a lick of sense. Face it, Allison may have been initially finagled like most people, but plenty of them left within that time frame, while Allison only involved herself deeper and deeper and fell for a huckster because something in her psyche (and her family) allowed it to happen.
Why are you being coy about “A person she trusted the most” when you said it was Kreuk before. Yet you never gave any details or any reason for anyone to believe you, and it conflicts with Mack being love-bombed by Salzman and Bronfman which seems like a more credible and supported story.
Sorry, but you know nothing about how cults work! Nobody joins a cult knowingly and for many people, it is impossible to figure out how to leave or what is even wrong with them. They live in a different pseudo-reality, which is not their fault either because they were manipulated without their knowledge or consent.
Lots of excuses!
Frank, it’s an awful thought but has interesting parallels.
When training dogs one technique of many employed is to limit the dog’s food. Hungry dogs pay closer attention to their handler. Shock collars are also employed to immediately punish a dog for loss of control, barking, and biting.
Rewards of praise, soothing talk, physically rubbing (and petting), and food. Food for enthusiasm and compliance to command.
Seems like KAR ( Smartest Man in the World ) was applying puppy training techniques to women.
Less food also means the brain can’t be nourished as well and can’t think as well.
Cheer up! People with restricted caloric intake statistically live longer, so they will have more time to think about falling for Raniere and his mob of female assistants. LOL
The worst part is it made it hard for “Dr.” Roberts to properly cauterize them without also burning a bone.