This is Part 6 on our series of sex-slaver Keith Alan Raniere teaching his sex-slave, former actress Allison Mack.
Part #1 Allison Mack Questions Her Sex Slaver Leader Keith Raniere on ‘What Is Creativity?’
Part #3 Sex-Slave Allison Mack Gets Lessons on Acting From Her Sex-Slaver Master Raniere
The work of transcribing was accomplished by Marie White, working off a video of Keith Raniere’s conversation with Allison Mack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PTG0CB_biM&authuser=1
In this part of the conversation, we get more exquisite word salad from Raniere delving further into his “love is pain” teachings. But the pleasure of this section is not Allison’s mindless acquiescence to the idiocy of his teachings or even his pretense to understanding them, but Allison’s admission of how Raniere taught her very soul.
By the way, please enjoy some of Keith’s best run-on sentences.
Keith:
When we most feel love, we feel pain and the depth of pain that we feel measures that love and the depths of the pain we feel in the sacrifices that we make for love.
If we look at love as some sort of transcendent human emotion, you have the body, and when you’re a newborn, you don’t have a whole lot of complicated emotions, but you have this body and this body desires to eat, desires warmth, this sort of a thing, and you start to develop emotions and you have ‘fight or flight’ sort of things, and, as you get a little older, you start to have more variety of emotions, more different types of feelings, and feelings often are just that there are certain types of visceral, somatic things that we call an emotion and we have ideas attached to them.
Allison: Um-hum
K: And we find as we become more intellectually able, we find that those ideas inspire what we call emotions, and those emotions inspire ideas, so we can walk down the street and have had an experience, as I have with a rattlesnake, stepping on a rattlesnake, almost being bitten, walking down the street one summer day, stepping, and hearing the rattlesnake at my feet, and it was just a twig, but because of my unique experience, I go into fight or flight.
I think I better run away from that rattlesnake. So, it’s this very interesting complex interrelationships between this: ideas, abstractions, principles, emotions, that are emotions of meaning, emotions that are much more viscerally caused and the body itself
A: Umhum
K: But we say love is beyond all that and when we say that someone loves someone even when they speak of love in the Bible, love is beyond all those things. How do you know someone loves someone? Is it in the good times?
A: No
No, it’s through the hardest times. It’s when there’s the most sacrifice. When someone maybe is even willing to sacrifice their life for the love of their partner, and we then see, and when we see that in a movie, or a play, or in real life, and we let ourselves go there, we feel this deep pathos. We feel this sense of love and love comes not from the receiving, it comes from the giving. It comes not from the satiation or the comfort. It comes from the sacrifice and the pain. That’s how we know it. That isn’t to say that it doesn’t exist in joy and, and happiness, but we know it through our pain, and if you have a fear of pain, you have a fear of knowing your own love. It’s not pain that is the problem. It’s the suffering, that’s the problem.
A: Hum
K: So all of these things that we are scared of in our personality that we hold away because we are scared of the pain they might bring is a way we also limit our capacity to experience our love.
So what the Source ideally can do, I hope, is by broadening the persons experience of themselves and giving them, if you will, reuniting them with these fragments, and this is only part of it, but this is one of the basis that they work off of. It also increases their capacity to experience love and to grow love within their life.
Allison: You mentioned “Reverence,” which is the curriculum that you developed, is sort of like what we call emotional… The Source in Reverence like you were saying, like, you, okay, so if the Source opens up this kind of cavern of experience that you shoved away for a long time, but, like, it’s, if you open the door to this thing, and you don’t know what to do with it, or how to interface with it, you don’t have the strength to withstand experience that comes back with that, then you have all this information about yourself but you’re kind of back where Robin Williams and Jeff Buckley are, like lost in the emotion of that experience.
K: Whereas in the Source, it’s hard for a person to be deeply authentic if they are inauthentic with themselves.
A: Umhum
K: And people who are inauthentic with themselves, the nature being inauthentic with yourself is that your blind to it. Otherwise you would be authentic with yourself and then you would be sort of conning yourself on top of it.
A: Right
K: But true self in authenticity is blindness. It’s an incompletion, but with understanding this philosophically and opening these areas up, then what are the practices, what are the actual practical tools that allow you to, if you will, it’s ah, it’s almost, ah, custom designed, or you might call it, ah, designer emotional states, designer emotional capacity, designer emotional transitions.
A: Yeah
K: Not only how do you design them, but how do you practice them? See how do you become good at being angry. There are some people very good at being angry and they practice it daily and the more they practice the better they get. But imagine if you could have a precise understanding of emotions and the dimensions of all of those emotions and to be able to practice them and to practice the different aspects of them and practice even the experience that leads to love.
Allison: That’s just incredible, because, I think, when we first met, when we first started studying the work that you produce, and [I] just became a student of all the different exercises and the processes to build myself, I felt like I was in a university for my soul, ha,ha, like it was, I always loved education, but I never really have had a lot of formalized education and I think we kind of share in that, um, but this felt like education in terms like nothing intellectually firm, it was more like I was educating my inner light, my spirit or whatever I don’t know what to call it.
K: I think, well, in a way, you mentioned we share in that, um, now I think you are better than I was. I had a lot of formal education. I just didn’t, I abused it. I didn’t complete it, didn’t respect it the way maybe I could have. Um, in some ways I got some things from it that were very good and some ways I think I didn’t get things I could have gotten from it so, um, it’s more, I had the opportunity and the structure, whereas you didn’t have that same structure.
A.: That’s true
K: So you are better than I was.
A: Well I don’t know about that.
End of bullshit excerpt
Well, we certainly got a load of knowledge from this last excerpt.
First, let’s enjoy some of Keith’s best word salad.
- When we most feel love, we feel pain and the depth of pain that we feel measures that love and the depths of the pain we feel in the sacrifices that we make for love
- As you get a little older, you start to have more variety of emotions, more different types of feelings, and feelings often are just that there are certain types of visceral, somatic things that we call an emotion and we have ideas attached to them.
- It’s this very interesting complex interrelationships between this: ideas, abstractions, principles, emotions, that are emotions of meaning, emotions that are much more viscerally caused and the body itself.
- It’s hard for a person to be deeply authentic if they are inauthentic with themselves.
- True self in authenticity is blindness.
- With understanding this philosophically and opening these areas up, then what are the practices, what are the actual practical tools that allow you to, if you will, it’s ah, it’s almost, ah, custom designed, or you might call it, ah, designer emotional states, designer emotional capacity, designer emotional transitions.
Keith also speaks of love.
- When someone … is even willing to sacrifice their life for the love of their partner… we then see… we let ourselves go there, we feel this deep pathos.
- Love comes not from the receiving, it comes from the giving.
- [Love] comes not from the satiation or the comfort. It comes from the sacrifice and the pain. That’s how we know it.
Keith never sacrificed anything for love but always required women to sacrifice. Keith took everything and always required of women to constantly give him tribute, money, their bodies and, if he could, their souls. Keith’s whole life was about satiation.
So what else is new? There is nothing new about this. We all know Keith was a crumb, a louse, a selfish, self-aggrandizing pig and liar.
What is fascinating is how successful, intelligent, beautiful women, who could get any number of intelligent men to join them in their plans and pursuits, would subjugate their own thinking and desires, even their self-interest to listen and follow this inarticulate, unattractive, clearly self-serving and wildly promiscuous man and think it was the greatest, most noble, smartest thing they could do with their lives.
Allison and others actually thought they were smarter than the rest, for they were wise enough to identify Keith’s greatness when others did not.
Listen to Allison speak: “The curriculum that you developed…. opens up this kind of cavern of experience … When we first met, when … [I] just became a student … I felt like I was in a university for my soul… I was educating my inner light, my spirit or whatever I don’t know what to call it.”
Some might call it brainwashing. That may be simplistic. It was the throwing away of the idea of self-preservation. The discarding of rational thinking and allowing another person to do her thinking. It was self-destruction masquerading as wisdom. And intermingled with it was unnatural sex, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, frequent punishment and degradation, the deliberate infliction of pain in the name of love and a perverse master-slave relationship that quelled healthy defiance and independent thinking.
She was not educating her inner light, but she was thinking she was, while destroying her inner light and her future.
Her cavern of experience was dark and ugly and one from which she almost did not escape. But for her arrest and conviction, she might be in Nxivm tomorrow and recruiting women to be branded today.
Her time with Raniere was about 10 years of her life. Most likely, she will never see him again. Her time with him was perhaps a university for her soul, but not in the way she meant it. No doubt Allison learned a lot and perhaps it made its impression on her soul. Perhaps she is still learning, still processing.
Frank Parlato 
Janine Morrison 
J.J. O'Hara 
Richard Luthmann 
Marie White 
Paul Serran
Please leave a comment: Your opinion is important to us!
“what are the actual practical tools that allow you to, if you will, it’s ah, it’s almost, ah, custom designed, or you might call it, ah, designer emotional states, designer emotional capacity, designer emotional transitions.”
Hmmm, DESIGNER emotions?! Sounds strikingly similar to:
GIRLS BY DESIGN
Frank – all my replies keep posting as new comments. The comment below was a reply for Scott. Not sure what the glitch is – already rebooted. Until I figure it out, I’m off.
Yes – he started at RPI when he had just turned 17 (August) in Fall 77 – the same year as KU. She graduated on time, spring 81. He didn’t graduate until 82 (with the year off on academic suspension).
It’s possible he may have come in with some college credit already. He is very bright in many ways despite being a warped human being. Doesn’t mean he applies that intelligence in useful “ethical” directions.
Part 20 of a man desperately trying to show the world only females are incapable of evil.
Why? So that these sick cults continue…
From the very beginning of my comments on the Frank Report, I have tried to emphasize that the women of NXIVM had the power to leave the criminal gang and stop enabling its criminal activities.
Equal Rights mean Equal Responsibilities.
What is the basis of that idea? This website is filled with examples of both males and females being capable of evil. LOL
“What is fascinating is how successful, intelligent, beautiful women, who could get any number of intelligent men to join them in their plans and pursuits, would subjugate their own thinking and desires, even their self-interest to listen and follow this inarticulate, unattractive, clearly self-serving and wildly promiscuous man and think it was the greatest, most noble, smartest thing they could do with their lives”
Coercion, starvation, sleep deprivation and mental abuse…That is how.
It’s a cult, they prey on people at their worst moment…when they are on the ground.
Once they are mentally controlled, they can make them believe any shit.
Allison was caught in the mud when she entered but she wasn’t ready to believe all the BS the monster draw at her…
But then, when she was at the worst moment of her life, he started to really prey on her mind.
That’s how this kind of asshole manages to get them on board…He is an idiot but he uses powerful tools to get control of women’s minds…
It’s also a game of patience. Allison, for example, for 6 years, she didn’t care about him all that much…But then, she had problems and he used them against her…
That is what cults do, they always use the same basic methods…
“Some might call it brainwashing. That may be simplistic”
Excuse me but once again, you talk without understanding…you Ranierize this whole thing.
If you ignore who she was before and who she became (and you do), you don’t understand at all the process of controlling their mind, life and everything…
I also remind you it’s a COMMERCIAL video…everything she “wrote” was staged…so Raniere doesn’t look (too much, at least) like an idiot.
Frank, how much are you paying poor Marie White for her transcribing duties and the articles you are making her write? Poor Marie is forced to watch TV shows of an actress who turns her stomach and embarrasses her and has to watch this gibberish over and over. Hopefully, you are not doing what the DOS women were dong to their slaves and making them work for free or being as cheap-ass as Clare and paying her only $15 an hour.
First, kudos once more to Marie for the transcripts – thanks for taking one for the team, and wading in the word salad and perhaps even more unsavory stuff.
I keep reading these pieces and finding them of interest to see Raniere at work – and Mack following him – and yet I always think I need to come back and read them a second time, or a third, or more, to find something actually interesting to point out, other than to comment generally on Raniere’s use of pseudo-profound bullshit, and possible confusion technique (DTR) or conversational hypnosis underlying it.
These last two pieces do at least have some shred of cult doctrine or indoctrination to be observed.
As pointed to in the piece, Raniere, who always sought to gratify himself and never sacrificed, is using his love-as-pain construct to try to get his followers and slaves to endure discomfort and sacrifice in his service.
And we see signs of some sort of theory of human development that is not shown to be based in anything other than his imaginings, typical whether it’s Hubbard or Steiner or some other guru.
Plus, typically for such a group or ideology, he claims that their techniques will somehow make people better at what they do, than the actual training long offered by professionals and experts – which is a reminder, by the way, that Mack (and Kreuk) should have started taking classes at Stella Adler Studio or The Lee Strasberg Theatre if she was serious about her craft, not following some grungy guru.
I do think we might want to talk more about the confusion or disrupt-then-reframe (DTR) technique, and possible conversational hypnosis, that may be what’s at work below the surface, with the word salad and bullshit just a sort of vector for a type of mental virus being transmitted to the victim.
One of the things that we’re often left to wonder about cult leaders, is to what extent they were deranged or deluded enough to believe their own nonsense, versus consciously using it as part of a toolkit of manipulation – though that leads to a yet deeper question of whether they have some justification for their deviousness as necessary to serve a higher purpose (often such exists at the upper level of members and principals) or are aware they are just serving themselves. This is perhaps the most illustrative example I’ve ever seen, where the leader is promulgating theories so obviously contradictory to his lifestyle and actions, that it’s hard to imagine he doesn’t realize what he’s doing.
—using his love-as-pain construct
It’s not “his” construct. Like most of everything else he allegedly came up with, he ripped it off, twisted it, and manipulated the hell out of its usage for his own purposes.
Agreed – I’ve noted as much in another comment, down below.
He does have a particular bizarre take on it, though.
You have to be an asshole to listen to this guy. And those creepy eyes say it all.
That was a response to OCD – my replies keep posting as new comments.
He told me he started having sex at 11 years old with an older woman. I’ve heard other people posit it was his mother. Keep in mind, he lies constantly – that first statement may be complete KR BS.
In all fairness, his mother passed away in the middle of either his freshman or sophomore year. I’m sure it must have had some impact on his studies. Didn’t stop him dancing several women on a string though.
Did you ever sense that Raniere may have been sexually involved with his mother? It’s one of my pet theories as to how he wound up hating women so much.
Interesting theory.
It would also fit with his seeming preference for cramped domestic situations, presumably much like how he and his mother had to live after his parents got divorced, when he could have afforded much better.
Whatever happened, he certainly seems to have had much of his development, particularly sexual, stuck somewhere in his adolescence.
It’s an interesting question. Many are born sociopaths or whatever his diagnosis really is. But Raniere’s apparent hatred of women and desire to break and abuse them is an unusual psychological twist. He actually seems to get pleasure out of it. It would be one thing had he been satisfied with merely breaking hearts or scamming money out of them. He had to go much, much further – apparently condoning starvation, sleep deprivation, denial of proper medical care, paddling, imprisonment, isolation, and painful branding. What gives? I believe I am more concerned about my dog’s health and well being than he was about his women’s. The most tragic thing is that many of them actually loved him and gave him unconditional support and respect. Some men can only dream of that.
I would love to see the pre-sentencing report, or at least excerpts of it. Can a redacted copy eventually be gotten through the Freedom of Information Act?
I doubt that we can get even a redacted version. But we are such as hell going to try!
Thanks for your efforts. I know that it’s a lot of work running down the details – and that you probably have other things to do, as well.
I’m hoping that at least at sentencing, the judge will make some general comments about what the pre-sentencing reports suggest to him, and that courtroom observers or transcripts will capture that.
That is one of the ugliest salads that I have ever seen, so using it as an illustration for Raniere’s pathetic, turdlike philosophizing is much appreciated. It looks as if some slob threw a few leaves on a plate. Then some woodland creatures dropped by, ate some leaves and left their resultant diarrhea next to the lettuce. Raniere’s portrait has now been done via food, as Tabouli Offal. The chef isn’t named Horace, by any chance? One of my nicknames for Raniere is WhoreAss.
Ha! The Shi is back! Tabouli Offal hahaha!
“K: But we say love is beyond all that and when we say that someone loves someone even when they speak of love in the Bible, love is beyond all those things. How do you know someone loves someone? Is it in the good times?
“A: No”
“K: No, it’s through the hardest times. It’s when there’s the most sacrifice. When someone maybe is even willing to sacrifice their life for the love of their partner, and we then see, and when we see that in a movie, or a play, or in real life, and we let ourselves go there, we feel this deep pathos. We feel this sense of love and love comes not from the receiving, it comes from the giving. It comes not from the satiation or the comfort. It comes from the sacrifice and the pain. That’s how we know it. That isn’t to say that it doesn’t exist in joy and, and happiness, but we know it through our pain, and if you have a fear of pain, you have a fear of knowing your own love. It’s not pain that is the problem. It’s the suffering, that’s the problem.”
Like I said in a previous comment about the “Love is pain” aphorism, it’s practically the same idea pulled from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJnWaHKjJbw
Lawyers often sue for “pain and suffering.” In a legal sense, they are the same thing. Raniere hired enough lawyers over the years to know that. LOL
That aphorism was also in popular songs during what seems to have been not just Raniere’s formative period, but the one of his late adolescence and college years in which he seems positively stuck – for example Love Hurts by Nazareth in the mid 1970s, and Love is Pain by Joan Jett and the Heartbreakers in the early 1980s.
There may even be some specific source that could be identified – Heidi often seems to know about such things. It occurs to me that DOS seemed quite possibly inspired in party by the Story of O (again, popular during Raniere’s youth, including film adaptations), which sort of has that as an underlying theme, and more overtly that of submission, which obviously fits; plus maybe Raniere delved deeper into, say, the Marquis de Sade, who I only know of in passing, but who a search reveals to have written things like “It is only by way of pain one arrives at pleasure.”
–The work of transcribing was accomplished by Marie White, working off a video of Keith Raniere’s conversation with Allison Mack.–
Please send Marie to a deprogrammer, NOW! She’s not only listened to hours of Keith’s brainwash salad, she then had to write it all down. How can any woman’s mind not be destroyed? “Save me…….!”
Marie is pretty well grounded.
She’ll do OK.
But she has done a fantastic transcription job!
Oh yeah? Why did Marie just get added to Keith’s approved visiting list? Talk about drawing the short straw… Frobisher better not whine the next time he’s assigned to write about Keith’s mouth sores and anal itch.
Where did you see about the visitation list?
Silence of the Lambs. LOL
“Why did Marie just get added to Keith’s approved visiting list?” Nutjob
Sometimes, reporters have to go where the story is.
If a reporter had interviewed Charles Manson, would that mean the reporter was a follower of Manson?
Of course not.
Was a joke. Hoping your reply also was.
Interesting what he says of not getting as much as he could out of his formal education. That’s because he was busy messing around instead of doing the work. He was put on academic probation and asked to leave for 1 year to get his act together (standard procedure at RPI). That’s why he did not graduate with Karen U in ’81. He had to come back a year later to complete his final semester.
His being “fully integrated” = being a psychopath. He doesn’t feel normal emotions, so he claims to be above all that and then pontificates on his “wisdom” of love. In reality, shoulda said “I have a lizard brain and I want to shave away yours until it is a lizard brain too.” God created man in his image; I guess the little demigod wanted the same. That’s what those sashes are – steps on the path to psychopathy. Sorry, Sensei Psychopath is no longer open for business – dojo demolition time.
Now, that is interesting. I don’t think we were aware of the academic suspension before. It fits right in with his M.O.
Agree that the first paragraph is new info and interesting. IMO, the second paragraph is brilliant.
Did Raniere graduate from high school early? Because if he didn’t, she should have graduated in 1982, unless he was trying to graduate as a triple major in three years.
I’ll say this much for Allison Pimp Mack’s education:
That the last two years have given the melodramatic thespian the most expensive legal education she could have ever received.
She lost her Half Moon townhouse which is worth an estimated 260,000 dollars.
She lost the 60,000 dollars she loaned to Dr. Brandon Porter for the down payment on his house.
She faces fines for her criminal convictions.
She faces a RICO lawsuit that will hit her with TRIPLE damages plus attorney fees for the Plaintiffs.
The public now knows why she earned the nickname “Ally Wack.”
She is a public pariah who will never again be regarded as a hero.
In fact, she might be lucky to get a job in a restaurant serving expensive mixed drinks like her erstwhile wife Nicki Clyne.
“Hey waitress, where’s my ‘Bean There, Done That’ Taco?”
Of course, Allison did learn that calling something “collateral” does not negate the fact that it is actually BLACKMAIL.
And Allison learned that the word RICO does not refer to a Spanish guy from San Juan.
But there are some facts we should learn from Allison Pimp Mack before she shuffles off into some very well earned obscurity.
Like where are all those blackmail photos and videos and false accusations and confessions you squeezed out of all those women?
A central theme of Neil Glazer’s lawsuit is the location of all that blackmail material.
Glazer’s clients would like that material back so they can destroy it.
Does Allison Pimp Mack think she can waltz off with all of that blackmail still stored on the cloud?
Those women wrote to Pimp Mack and her co-conspirators demanding that the blackmail be returned to them.
According to Attorney Glazer, none of that blackmail has been returned.
Are Glazer’s clients going to be embarrassed years from now by the release of that blackmail?
As long as that blackmail is still out there, NXIVM’s blackmail scheme is still an ongoing crime.
Allison Pimp Mack’s Superfan Charger426Hemi1 can proclaim on the internet all she wants about how Allison Pimp Mack is a “compassionate gentle soul” but the record exposes Mack as just another “Mack Daddy” who abuses, exploits and tortures women.
“These high-level defections, along with a stream of defections of DOS “slaves,”
shook the NXIVM community to its core. Many DOS defectors began writing to Defendants,
including Allison Mack, Lauren Salzman, Nancy Salzman, and Clare Bronfman, pleading for
their collateral to be returned or destroyed. Lauren Salzman testified at the Raniere trial that she
would pass such pleas along to Defendant Clare Bronfman. No collateral was ever returned or
destroyed.”
“In fact, at least one DOS member’s collateral was released in retaliation for her speaking out against Defendants, NXIVM and DOS.
That collateral had been edited by Lauren Salzman and Allison Mack.”
https://kohnswift.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/EdmondsonComplaintFiled.pdf
Come on, Shadow. Be honest. As you read more and more of these articles, and as time goes on, aren’t you softening your stance a tiny tiny bit towards Allison? It’s ok if you are. It would actually be weird if you weren’t.
In today’s world, there is no excuse for the stupidity and cruelty that Allison Mack has displayed.
In fact, if you read my comment above I note that Mack has been asked to return the blackmail material and Mack has refused.
Moreover, Mack edited the blackmail material to the detriment of one of the Jane Does.
This behavior by Allison Pimp Mack is not only criminal it is reprehensible.
This sort of behavior by Allison Pimp Mack is utterly depraved and inexcusable.
Sorry. Too soon.
Ask the many women who were victimized by Allison Pimp Mack how they feel about her.
Ok. I’ll start calling them. Can you share their phone numbers? Cause it sounds like you’ve already done what you’re encouraging me to do.
Nutjob:
Your focus is all WRONG!
In any crime, instead of focusing on the defendant, you should focus on the victims and how they were injured by the defendant’s outrageous criminal behavior.
Perhaps you would feel differently if your own daughter had been branded and blackmailed and turned into a sex slave by a person she trusted.
Maybe. I think you are covering your eyes so as not to see that the worst of the worst of the female NXIVM members were also, in part, victims themselves. Your idea of talking to the victims is one I agree with. I’d bet they are more on board with Frank’s recent thoughts than yours.
“I think you are covering your eyes so as not to see that the worst of the worst of the female NXIVM members were also, in part, victims themselves” Nutjob
Does that include the Bronfman sisters who sued people into bankruptcy?
And if we can find that Raniere was sexually molested when he was a child, then maybe he is a victim too.
Open up the prisons and jails and let everyone out!
Everyone is a victim!
To most of us here, the question is “where is the line between victim and perp?” It’s weird interacting with you because you refuse to acknowledge that a line even exists.