One of the most important ongoing projects of the Frank Report is putting Clare and Sara Bronfman behind bars for years to come.
These two criminals have largely escaped prosecution – with Clare buying a plea deal with sentencing guidelines of about two years – [and a $6 million fine] and Sara fleeing the US and living in France.
In an upcoming post, I will reveal who Sara’s French connection is – who claims he can protect her from extradition. Maybe a little spotlight on him will take him out of the shadows.
Overall, this is a big task – to put wealthy criminals away. The biggest thing we have going for us, however, is that they have lots of money.
At the same time this is the biggest obstacle. They can buy their way out of trouble, they think.
But, as we saw in the prosecution of Clare ‘Legatus’ Bronfman, that Clare – the most vicious of the Nxivm criminals outside of Keith Raniere – was able to purchase, from the Department of Justice – for a $6 million fine – via her plea bargain – a deal down from racketeering etc, – which would have been 3-5 years in prison – to a deal with a 21-24 months sentencing range. [identity theft and harboring an illegal alien for profit].
It cost her about $3 million per year to buy down her sentence.
But note it well — she could not completely buy off a prison sentence. She was still charged and the Department [Store] of Justice was thrilled to get her $6 million – and shave off a few years – but they had to give her some prison time.
It is no doubt true that Clare would have been willing to pay more to buy it down further – but the feds had to be worried about optics.
She could not buy it down to zero. That would be too obvious to the world that money buys justice at the Department of Justice in America [which it does, of course].
So how could the feds get more from Bronfman?
Simple. They have to charge her with more of the crimes she actually committed. And they have to have the willingness – the guts – to go after the big fish again.
It is not easy to go after big money defendants, for they can afford lawyers.
In the US – if you cannot afford a lawyer [I’m not counting public defenders who are overworked, underpaid, are usually not top flight, have no time or money budget for extraneous things that ensure justice – like case prep, hiring investigators, interviewing witnesses etc..- and if you have one – even if you are innocent – you are going to prison for a long time – if you don’t take a plea deal].
The system works that way.
So the DOJ going after poor to middle class people – innocent or not – means it does not have to worry too much about evidence or other inconvenient matters.
Since a middle class defendant cannot afford top attorneys – in a federal prosecution – which is very expensive – they usually just take plea deals – innocent or not. But, with the wealthy, who can afford lawyers, the DOJ has to prove their case. And they hate to do that.
It takes up time and resources and a conviction stat is the same whether it is a poor person or rich one.
The only difference is the fines collected.
Still, in the Bronfman case – she committed plenty of crimes, which will be easy to prove.
The purpose of Operation Legatus then is to expose their crimes and lay them out on a silver platter for the DOJ.
Now there has to be both carrot and a stick for most people. The same is true of bureaucracies – which is, at the end of the day, precisely what the Department of Justice is – a bureaucracy. Its stock and trade is putting people in prison – and getting fines.
Prison for the poor – and fines from the rich.
The DOJ could easily reel in $20-$30 million in fines – as these two sisters willingly buy down their prison sentences in plea deals.
Maybe the feds already know their crimes. Then again, maybe they don’t.
It does not seem the DOJ is presently doing any serious investigation of the two sisters – so maybe it’s best, as I did for Raniere, to lay out their crimes and help the investigation along.
I find it is best to lay the crimes out publicly – then they are harder to ignore and the readers offer insights and knowledge in the comments section.
I am, of course, not appealing to the Department of Justice to do this out of a sense of justice. Like any Orwellian-named bureaucracy, I know them better than that. Justice is not the goal. Never was and never could be.
This is nothing to be angry about.
It is simply a bureaucracy. They cannot pursue justice but only the optics of justice. The optics require convictions and fines. People in prison and fines collected. This is how they are judged – as individual offices – or districts – and as individual prosecutors.
No one in the DOJ was ever promoted by exonerating wrongly accused defendants. Almost every career prosecutor was promoted by conviction stats – which – it is a hazard of the trade – means putting some innocent people in prison.
It works that way.
At one time there was a principle of justice ascribed to by men like Franklin and Adams – and perhaps known best as Blackstone’s Ratio.
It is that “It is better that 10 guilty ones go free than one innocent suffer.”
The concept that innocent people should not go to prison – just to create a society where every guilty person goes to prison – is now obsolete.
The old idea was that it is better to have a type of due process and fair trials that lean toward the defendant. In case he is innocent – even if it is close – he should get the benefit of the doubt. This kind of system means that some guilty people go free.
It does not work that way in America.
Innocent people go to prison every day – mostly through plea deals – because they can’t afford to defend themselves, or they have been grossly over charged [coercive plea bargains] and because the system [especially the federal system] is slanted toward the prosecution. [Most federal judges were formerly prosecutors].
So innocent people go to prison all the time – and that is good for optics – since convictions – the numbers – prove the bureaucrats are doing their job at the Department of Justice.
Justice is hard to measure, but convictions are easy.
So let’s be clear – I am not appealing to the Department of Justice – as seekers of justice – to go after Clare Bronfman and her sister.
It is immature to think that this could be their goal.
One has to view them as bureaucrats who want to work as little as possible and be promoted based on the standards of their bureaucracy – which is convictions and money collected.
In this case, I am appealing to the Department of Justice – not for conviction stats- they can get that easily by over-charging poorer defendants – and making plea deals.
I am appealing to the DOJ based on their need to collect fines. They sell justice to the rich all the time – and they get credit for it. That goes on their stats.
The Department {Store] of Justice is usually willing to wheel and plea deal with rich defendants – money versus a lighter sentence. They did this once already with Clare.
Here is a chance for the Department of Justice to make another large sale of justice – to both of the Bronfmans – and for real crimes – not phony ones.
The crimes involve racketeering – crimes of serious consequences.
So please pay attention in the coming days as we lay out the true crimes of Sara and Clare Bronfman.
Frank Parlato 
Janine Morrison 
J.J. O'Hara 
Richard Luthmann 
Marie White 
Paul Serran
Please leave a comment: Your opinion is important to us!
Blackstone’s Ratio: “Better that ten guilty persons should escape than that one innocent suffer” — sounds so very noble and virtuous — yet there is a fundamental fallacy with Blackstone. The recidivism rate today, among violent criminals, is up to 70% — thus your ten guilty persons who escape will produce 7 more murders, rapes, manslaughters – causing seven more innocents to suffer – in addition to the ten original victims of the guilty — so no you have 17 innocents suffering. Better perhaps for that one innocent to suffer than the ten guilty persons escaping.
Re Claire the whisky witch… I’m wondering what the terms of her plea deal were. Wouldn’t you assume her hot shot big time attorneys would have negotiated that no further NXIVM related charges will be brought in exchange for her guilty plea to reduced charges — some token jail time and of course the $6 million?
I was thinking you and perhaps Rick Ross and so many others who’s lives were devastated by Claire’s vicious tactics for years, could tie her up in personal and class action suits for years and clean out her excess cash. After OJ’s acquittal — the Goldman family took him to the cleaners in civil court. The reason OJ lost there was the burden of proof is not as high in civil action as in criminal court. It strikes me that without her millions Ms Claire would be nothing but another unpleasant person on the planet.
Imagine Princess Claire having to… wait tables. Almost better than prison. I know its a stretch, but such a pleasant thought.
Whatever happens – go get her Frank.
You missed the point, the victims should have guns and blow away the bad guy if s/he tries to commit another crime, or put them in jail for life. Why put an innocent person in prison when you can take care of the issue? Would you like to be that innocent person in order to help others? I doubt it. Very much.
Interesting, if also disappointing, that this is perhaps the most important article here, and yet has garnered far fewer comments than the latest Kreuk piece.
Having known a number of people who work in the federal justice system, I think there is an inaccurate unfair characterization of them here. The people I’ve known – and I have good reason to believe they’re representative of most – believe in justice and are even idealists. Why else, for instance, would top law school grads like NXIVM prosecutors Penza and Hejjar work for substantially less money than they could be making in the private sector?
Unfortunately, good intentions often get lost in almost any human bureaucracy, whether it’s government, church, business, or whatever.
That has been exacerbated in this case by a political trend to taking a very harsh and vindictive approach to justice – it’s Congress and the administration who set policy and appoint those who oversee the system. Just look at the people who comment here, who practically salivate over the prospect of inmates being dealt cellblock justice, raped and even murdered; politicians pander to voters like that.
For example, the reason that facilities like MDC are becoming gulags where neglect and failure to follow procedure is becoming the norm, and inmate suicides and deaths are increasingly common, is decisions by politicians and the people they appoint.
AnoyMaker,
“Interesting, if also disappointing, that this is perhaps the most important article here, and yet has garnered far fewer comments than the latest Kreuk”…….
I have voiced similar sentiments on the Frankreport before almost verbatim. 😉
I hate to use the same 2-dollar vocabulary two days in a row, but the Frankreport’s comment section is …..”indicative” of the world we live in. It’s always been that way. Remember the USS Maine?
*****
Re Bureaucracy & DOJ & Good intentions:
The Department of Justice is grossly underfunded. The shear volume of overall crime is insurmountable. The DOJ has only so much time and money. Plus the Federal court system is backlogged like a clogged porta-potty at a rock concert.
As you can probably tell……..
….I agree with your comment,
100%!!!
I do enjoy your posts. I do not always comment on your posts because it attracts the trolls.
No doubt the above statement will attract a blistering diatribe from one of the Frankreport’s glib trolls.
BTW: I was only messing with you when I mentioned the malapropism the other day. 😉
Take care!
Lawyers like Penza work at the DOJ for a while to learn the ropes and get some experience and then join a private practice for the big bucks. If they started at the private practice, they may never get the experience to move up the food chain.
Scott,
No one has the right to earn a living?
Penza put Vanguard away. She crafted the prosecution from weak evidence and crappy testimony.
Scott cut her some slack. Her mission was to prosecute Keith Raniere.
Is it possible the backdoor to Sara Bronfman is her lovely husband, the alleged next King of Libya?
We mostly don’t have plea bargains in the UK and that is better as there is no kind of blackmail issue with the state – take a risk and you may go down for a long time, compromise even if you are guilty and go down for less. I don’t like how it works in the US.
I agree.
What kind of right punishes the person who exercises it with a punishment like a harsher prison sentence.
And plea bargains allow the defendants to later complain that the state coerced them into confessing.
It’s a money game in the U.S., the lawyers make more money using their billable hours with negotiations, which ends the case sooner than a trial, and then they can get more clients. Actual justice is an afterthought.
Regardless of the Bronfman sisters and Nxivm, the Bronfman family has had years of interesting ways of making profits. Some would call it organized crime. There are other Bronfman associations, endowments etc. being examined with equally great attention, especially right now.
Looking at ties between the Bronfman vested interests and Jeffrey Epstein’s has shown several points of intersection, progressively more and more intersections, to quite a number of various researchers. Here’s about a one minute quote from investigative journalist, Whitney Webb, speaking with George Galloway at You Tube very briefly.
” I personally think that Epstein was serving multiple roles for intelligence, and potentially different intelligence agencies of different countries.
” We have the element of his sexual blackmail operation, which of course now is the best known. But I think he was definitely laundering money on a massive scale, for organized crime and also for, most likely, intelligence….”
(Here she says soon she will do a long segment about this entire batch of entanglements.) “And a lot of it had involvement with the Bronfman family as well. One of the Bronfman trusts is one of the entities that keeps coming up, with the passing around of these properties for zero dollars sales and a lot of other odd activity that was going on in the 1990s.”
Mr. Wexner was right in the thick of it, both with Edgar Bronfman and with Epstein, not that Wexner was/is the only one. But Wexner was not the Invisible Man so much with Edgar Bronfman and his certifiable prestige. With Epstein, Wexner’s exact role and exactly how and why it happened is well-guarded.
Clare Bear deserves everything that’s coming to her and more. She will never be held accountable nor will she do any real time for the crimes she has committed. In fact, she’s not even charged for the actual crimes she’s committed. Like Frank said, she can buy justice. I like to believe that God’s justice, which doesn’t care about wealth or status, will catch up to her in some way. The laws of Karma are real. And Clare will meet her Karma. So will Sara, who is equally a criminal.
So Frank should just give up writing the stories about Clare and Sara, because it won’t amount to anything? How optimistic of you.
“Operation Legatus” is an amusing title.
“Justice is a commodity just like anything else. You get as much of it as you can afford.”
“The rich do as they want, the poor do as they must.”
Still, it’s not quite as bad as that. Wealthy famous celebrity Felicity Huffman got sentenced to prison for helping her kid cheat on the SATs. I had no idea this could be prosecuted as a felony. Let alone that rich people would be prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced.
Martha Stewart served prison time.
People with money have an advantage when they face the law, sure. But they are not above the law.
And despite his fine sentiment, in Sir William Blackstone’s day the deck was stacked far more in favor of the rich.
It’s often public outrage that turns the tables on the rich, so whether it’s Bill Cosby, NXIVM or Amway, when enough people are outraged the government often does the right thing. As Frank said, it’s all about optics. The internets has helped provide more exposure to rich people who, in the past, simply paid off the media to not publish their misdeeds.
Sara Bronfman was the coordinator for several Vanguard Birthday celebrations at Silver Bay.
As the coordinator, she was aware that multiple slaves and people were working and NOT GETTING PAID for the work they performed.
That is forced labor conspiracy, failure to file employee tax returns, and racketeering.
SHE ALSO was aware that students who paid cash for classes – the money was just funneled into Keith’s accounts and the students were annotated as having received SCHOLARSHIPS. That is money laundering and tax evasion.
Well said John. Read some of your comments and folks like you and Reality make this blog still worth reading. Still some people with a high thought level commenting here.
Being aware and proving that she was aware are two very different concepts.
OJ Simpson bought his way out of two murder convictions thanks to his Dream Team of attorneys. They managed to turn a somewhat dilapidated leather glove into a successfully demonstrated card trick. This was accomplished despite that DNA testing showed that the glove contained the commingled DNA of O.J. Simpson, Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman. This despite the fact that leather gloves shrink when subjected to wetness and moisture, i.e., ” if it doesn’t fit, you must acquit.” This also despite his past history of abusiveness towards his wife.
Sorry buddy but you are pitching BS. The Simpson case was won with the jury selection. Too many on the jury didn’t wanna see a brother do time as a slap to the man…the white justice man. In spite of the fact Bro OJ lived in Brentwood and basically dated and fucked only white chicks and was more white than most whites. He could have got away with anything with that jury. The prosecutors were lame and afraid, since the LA South Central hood rats torched the city because of the treatment of criminal thug Rodney King.
Yes, the jury was selected not only on purpose, but also by some lucky misinterpretative misuses of strategy on the part of the prosecution’s selection choices. Decisions made by the prosecution team played right into, particularly, Mr. Cochran’s streesmart hands. We ended up with a jury designed as pro-Simpson as possible. That was clear from the onset and also received a whole lot of publicity at the time.
When OJ did his famous low-speed chase, he would’ve had to keep going south through and past Rancho Bernardo, where we lived then. Both my father and my L.A. father-in-law knew two different members of Simpson’s defense team for a long, long time. And personally, albeit through work’s necessities, not play’s. I am not choosing to say more about that.
I agree with your points and continue to stand behind the points I made. Overall none of these aspects of the design of the whole defense strategy are mutually exclusive. What the jury and other observers got to see was a symphony with several acts. The jury selection was crucial for the defense, and Cochran knew how to present and to represent at the same time. He was incredible to observe.
A captivating attorney excels at shooting the breeze, from start to finish. Shapiro, Mr. F.lea Bailey, even Epstein’s old pal Desrhowitz and Kardashian were very prepared to handle different defense avenues. Kardashian seemed to have been haunted by these two murders for the rest of his life, which wasn’t much longer.
Cochran’s starring role work, and the team’s work wasn’t finished only by jury selection. If the client pays enough for defense, that client doesn’t even get to hear or necessarily to understand aspects of the logistics being wielded. Certainly OJ Simpson didn’t comprehend every detail of what his own dream team did to coerce that not guilty plea.
In fact his dream team assembled themselves. OJ was tranquilized. Even still OJ claimed ( and publicly!) that he never owned any “ugly-ass Magli shoes,” only to arouse the media to show a photo of him aired around the world, wearing the exact model of Bruno Magli shoes which left shoe prints at the scene of the murders. There was concern amongst his dream team about getting OJ to stfu.
It was more of the same adroit tactics being used throughout, as a couple of individuals were planted close to OJ’s ears to “soothe him” and to watch over his big, careless mouth, to remind him to try to keep from expressing too much emotion through his face. He was given to looking scornful, derisive, sometimes too angry.
The prosecution’s entire case struggled with being dominated, step by step, by a grittier and more sophisticated team of attorneys. Darden knew it and coped with depression over it a lot during the trial.
For all of this, that glove stunt remains climactic, even to this day. Quite the grand finale. It was by far the most riveting moment during the trial, until the verdict was delivered.
As far as I can figure from the ” buddy” word with which you deigned to address me, my guess is that you under at least two “mistaken impressions.” Do enjoy them, though.
I respect your opinion but it is much simpler than you make it. I explained it in simple truth. Cochran didn’t do didley shit. The trial was a set up from the get go. They did not want the thugs in LA to riot again so justice was held hostage.
And the Judge in that case Lance Ito turned that whole process into a farce.
The only Justice O. J. Simpson received was when he became a pariah and could no longer get roles in movies and TV commercials.
Later Simpson engaged in armed robbery in Nevada and served time for that.
Here is Saturday Night Live’s version of OJ Simpson on a date.
SNL couldn’t help getting a dig on Trump with the “fake news” comment. LOL
Don’t forget the even richer Salinas Gang which includes not only the corrupt political Salinas family but also corrupt Mexican bankers who launder dirty money.
Through its tight fisted control of the Mexican PRI party and alliances with the corrupt American Democratic party and Canada’s vile Liberal Party the Salinas Crime Family has its tentacles all over North America.
Associated with the Salinas Gang we find Mexican sex traffickers like Rose Laura Junco who brought eleven teen aged Mexican girls to Clifton Park, New York to be groomed for sex with the Vanguard.
Rose Laura Junco comes from a Mexican newspaper publishing dynasty that owns journals in many of Mexico’s biggest cities.
“Allison Mack and sex cult leader Raniere may have trafficked teen and preteen girls from Chihuahua, Mexico”
https://frankreport.com/2018/04/25/allison-mack-and-sex-cult-leader-raniere-may-have-trafficked-teen-and-preteen-girls-from-chihuahua-mexico/
“Source: Mexican teens in Albany, Summer 2017 – left in a hurry
What were high school age Mexican girls doing in Albany with Clare Bronfman? Was she training them for Keith or for herself?”
https://frankreport.com/2018/08/14/source-mexican-teens-in-albany-summer-2017-left-in-a-hurry/
“MEXICAN TEENS LEFT CLIFTON PARK; REFERRED TO RANIERE AS “CREEPY”
“Ms. Junco, and her assistant, Sahajo Haertel, were in charge of instructions. Ms. Junco’s daughter, Lauris, 13, also attended classes.”
https://frankreport.com/2017/09/06/mexican-teens-left-clifton-park-referred-to-raniere-as-creepy/
(Note from Shadow State: Sahajo Haertel, a former member of the OSHO sex cult in Oregon, has close ties to Allison Mack and Sara Bronfman.)
“Sahajo Haertel
referred by Sara R Bronfman Igtet
Clifton Park, NY
Yellow, 1 stripes
coach Allison Mack”
https://artvoice.com/2018/08/24/the-top-150-plus-remaining-high-rank-of-nxivm-revealed/
And while we are on the subject of Sara Bronfman what are the ties between Sara Bronfman, Allison Mack, Kim Busby Constable and the Rainbow Cultural Gardens?
And what was the purpose of Allison Mack’s unusual side trip to Belfast in November 2016 to meet with Kim Busby Constable?
“Meet Kim Constable – leader of Rainbow Cultural Garden Ireland – NXIVM member and – according to her – a true executive success!”
https://artvoice.com/2018/09/04/meet-kim-constable-leader-of-rainbow-cultural-garden-ireland-nxivm-member-and-according-to-her-a-true-executive-success/
“Shadow State: What is Kim Constable trying to hide?”
https://artvoice.com/2018/09/07/shadow-state-what-is-kim-constable-trying-to-hide/
sarabronfman
Love my girls! #friendship
154wReply
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMZmPaKAIre/?hl=en&taken-by=allisonmack729
Once again, issues with Salinas and the PRI don’t fall along simple political lines. They are in many ways conservative, and probably have at least as many ties to Republicans as to Democrats – you only have to look at the overtures the current US administration has made to the PRI. Did you miss the fact that the PRI gave a member of the current First Family a medal that is Mexico’s highest honor?
” They are in many ways conservative, ”
Hillary Clinton is in fact conservative.
A former Goldwater Girl who infiltrated the Democratic Party.
Hillary Clinton lusts after Global American Hegemony.
She overthrew the government of Libya sending that country into chaos and she tried to overthrow Syria starting a Civil War that killed over 500,000 people.
Hillary Clinton is John Foster Dulles in a pants suit.
And the only people who mention these facts are Donald Trump and Tulsi Gabbard.
Tulsi Gabbard laid out Hillary Clinton’s ties to the War Machine in a recent Tweet:
Tulsi Gabbard, never cowered, said it straight and true in response: “Great, thank you. You (Hillary Clinton) the Queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain. From the day I announced my candidacy, there has been a concerted campaign to destroy my reputation. We wondered who was behind it and why. Now we know — it was always you, through your proxies and concerted campaign to destroy my reputation. We wondered who was behind it and why. Now we know — it was always you, through your proxies and powerful allies in the corporate media and war machine, afraid of the threat I pose.
“It’s now clear that this primary is between you and me. Don’t cowardly hide behind your proxies. Join the race directly.”
She later said, “I stand against everything she represents.”
Halloween is the time for masks and dissembling. Hillary Clinton is a figure straight out of a grotesque Halloween party, as are her clones in the Democratic party. Tulsi Gabbard was not invited to their party but came anyway, and came to tell the truth about the masquerade.
She has torn off Clinton’s mask and asks the American people to see the true face of Clinton and all her minions, who represent the triumph of war and death,
http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/28443
She later said, “I stand against everything she represents.”
Bullshit. She and Clinton are both leftist libtards. She and Clunton are almost identical on most social issues. Ask your girl why Podesta has donated to her.
You are as foolish as the anoyfaker if you think ole Tulsi is genuine. The goofball anoyfaker thinks Salinas is a conservative along the lineof American conservatives. He does not know what the hell he is talking about. According to anonyfaker he would say the PierrE DelectO is conservative because he is a republican. I would hardly call Jared Kushner conservative.
Back to your girl Tulsi
Tulsi Gabbard: Friend or Foe?
The “D” behind all of their names stands for Deceptive.
What crimes did the Bronfmans commit that they have not yet been charged with? Why do you believe further charges should be added?
This article doesn’t make sense to me because if you really are aware of more crimes than the DOJ has been able to uncover, then why don’t you provide them with the evidence?
Flowers I did provide the EDNY with a list of those crimes and will do so for the NDNY.
The point isn’t the list of crimes, it’s the evidence. Anybody can accuse anybody of a list of crimes, but it takes evidence to get the FBI/DOJ’s attention.
I also provided evidence – and leads where the FBI – using their subpoena power – could get the evidence. It was more than a list.
Absolutely you did, it’s all over this website as well, which is quite different than O’Hara’s lawsuit, for example. One would think a trained lawyer would know better. I’m looking forward to the future articles.
Considering the FBI and other law enforcement agencies already thoroughly investigated the Bronfmans, what other evidence could exist? Are you claiming that law enforcement did not do their job properly?
This is what I am saying: The DOJ definitely did not charge Clare Bronfman with all the criminal charges that she committed. I think I have made that pretty clear in numerous articles. She was allowed to pay a $6 million fine and in return get a very light plea deal. I’ve written that numerous times. There are many more crimes she can be charged with and I hope to reveal some of the other crimes she committed. Maybe the DOJ [NDNY?] might reconsider charging her and collect another $6-$20 million in fines -as she buys down a plea deal.
The FBI and other law enforcement agencies did not investigate thoroughly. Stay asleep lady. Matter of fact you have much election fraud up there in Canada to worry about.
Flowers, we don’t know how much the FBI/DOJ investigated the NDNY crimes.
Maybe they didn’t charge her with some of these alleged crimes because they didn’t think they had enough evidence for a conviction. They could be satisfied with the $6M that she has already paid. Also, I think it’s unlikely that Clare will continue committing crimes now that she’s no longer under Keith’s influence.
The lack of evidence could very well be the reason for not charging her with other crimes, the high bar of beyond a reasonable doubt is difficult to attain. Hopefully they scared the crap out of her, that’s one of the prosecutor’s goals.