Heidi: Another Take on Toni Natalie as a Mom 

By Heidi Hutchinson

I used to talk to Toni Natalie on the phone on a regular basis back in 2010 – 2011. During that time, her adopted son, Michael, briefly moved back in with her for what was planned to be a blessed reunion between them.

I believe he stayed with her for about 10 days.

I heard many Keith Raniere’s stories first (or second or third) hand from Toni and, in hindsight, I recall having a sense that she was rehearsing some of them on me.  Perhaps I failed her by not speaking up when a few facts didn’t quite hold together, but I also sensed her very palpable fear and trauma over what she alleged were Keith’s non-stop, vindictive attacks.

Mind you, this was in 2010-2011 – AFTER we’d been interviewed for the Albany Times Union expose series that was not published until February of 2012.  The series took almost two years from the time I first interviewed and the time it was published.

It was a long wait.

I honored Albany Times Union’s James Odato’s request that none of us who spoke on the record against Raniere speak with each other until after he completed his interviews with us – but, obviously, we were free to speak among ourselves after the interviews, while the Times Union story was being edited and under legal review – for the next two, exasperating years.

So, naturally, some of us did speak a lot and have a kind of sisterhood, as we waited for what we thought was going to be a very hard-hitting series.  Toni and I developed our relationship under these circumstances.

Call me a coward, but I gotta admit I might have never initially contacted Jim Odato back in 2009 – about my sister, Gina, [whose death was ruled a suicide] had I heard some of Toni’s scary stories about Keith beforehand.

In fact, between Toni’s stories and revelations that Keith’s war chest was padded by not only the Bronfman sisters’ Seagram fortune but by the dangerous Salinas family of Mexico, there was a time or two I thought about trying to pull my interview altogether.

Toni, however, was certain the Times Union expose would blow NXIVM into smithereens, no matter how formidable a foe it turns out they were.  She would leave gleeful voicemails for me that began, “Tic, tock, tic, tock…” whenever she got news of any progress on the Times Union story.

So, during this time, Michael’s return to live with Toni “happily ever after” did have the feel of a grand finale; one that was being timed to correlate with the Times Union publication which we were told was going to happen within days.

So Michael moved in with Toni – for the first time in more than 14 years.

[I now wonder if Toni only brought Michael back to live with her because she thought the Times Union expose would destroy Nxivm {It did not} and she could then claim she lived happily with her son – which might help her sell a book or documentary – with she, in the leading role – as the brave single mom – who took down a cult.]

Within days, Toni began complaining to me about Michael and, in particular, his eating habits which she said he picked up from his dad, Rusty.  While Michael was living there those few days, Toni told me the only good thing Keith contributed as a co-parent, back in the 1990s, when Michael was 6-8 years old, was Keith severely restricting Michael’s caloric intake.

But now the young man – about 22 – was defiant. Living with Toni, he liked to eat whatever he wanted. And he did.

I already had bad feelings about the subject of severe caloric restriction for adults and especially children. Despite Toni’s yen for the thin model type body – a desire she seemed to share with Keith – I was very much against too much restriction – perhaps much more so than others who might think super skinny model look is beautiful – because of my late sister Gina’s sudden 30 pound weight loss in the weeks leading up to her death [which suggests to me that Keith was again active in her life. Gina was 5’7″ and 110 pounds when she died].

And I was starting to notice the same Nazi concentration camp look trending among Nxivm female recruits in social media and other online pictures we were gathering then. I believe Odato looked into this.

Not much more than five or six days after Michael moved in with Toni, we got bad news. The Times Union story was pushed back again. It now appeared it would be delayed for months.

The following day, Toni called me in a fury – declaring Michael had done something so heinous and unforgivable that he must move out immediately.  He had put both her and her dogs’ lives at jeopardy by leaving her garage door open for more than an hour in broad daylight!

Now, this oversight might seem trivial to someone who isn’t an arch-enemy of Raniere, but, I could understand how Michael’s security lapse could rattle Toni’s self-preservation instincts.  But not to the degree that her son should be tossed out on the street.

I thought, “Wouldn’t Michael be in danger if he were made suddenly homeless? Had she any real concern for Michael’s well-being?”

I remember trying to talk Toni down by saying I didn’t think the garage door closed or shut would be a hindrance to professional goons Keith could easily afford if he really wanted to do her or her dogs bodily harm.

[According to Toni, Keith had previously poisoned her German Shepard, Jake. But she never provided me with evidence of this.  I am uncertain if she ever filed a police report. To this day, I do not know if the poisoned dog story is true or not – although I believed it at the time based on her word.]

But getting back to the garage door being open in the daytime, it is unclear if Toni was using that as an excuse to throw her son out, now that the Times Union story was not coming out right away – or whether she was really frightened.

As I recall, after I spoke with her, Toni decided to give Michael a couple of days to make alternative living arrangements before booting him out.

I do recall that during those next few days, while Michael was still there, Toni called me daily for a security walk-through. She walked around the house, phone in hand – checking locks and jams behind Michael [who evidently wasn’t able to live in the same constant fear-status mode – perhaps a habit he had picked up from his father] and not quite getting the need for such security  – despite being harped at and humiliated by Toni – with me all the while on the phone.

Puppy in the Freezer

I’m not about to spill the “puppy-in-the-freezer” story, which I have no doubt Toni’s book will reveal. I do not know if her story is true or not. But Toni told me the story of how a despicable Keith blamed Michael for his puppy’s death when its death was clearly accidental.

While it made Keith seem like quite a monster, as a mother myself, I did not understand Toni’s acquiescence to Keith’s punishing the child the way he did.

Had anyone ever tried to lay a guilt trip on my son, like Keith supposedly did on Michael – over carelessly “killing” his own pet – when the pup’s death, according to Toni, was an accident, I would have stood up to the man and objected.

I draw a line with anyone who abuses a child. But it was far worse.

According to Toni, Keith made her keep the body of the puppy in their freezer and Keith [with Toni’s full knowledge and consent] made Michael stare at the dead puppy for a certain length of time every day – in order to teach him the consequences of his action.

Toni described this as more of Keith’s brutal behavior and his monster-like tendencies. But I gleaned something different from her horror story. That she was a horrible and unfit mother.   There is no way I would have let anyone do that to my son. That is child abuse – having a boy of seven forced to stare at a dead puppy – daily for a fixed period of time – to teach him a lesson?

I wouldn’t have waited around for him to rape me repeatedly in the next room as my son was sleeping – before leaving Keith – – as Toni said she did – or before sending Michael to live with his sane father in Rochester.

Now, in retrospect, I do not know if the dead puppy story is true. If it is, and I do not know if Toni realizes it, it makes Toni look pretty bad for tolerating it.

Either way, Toni was far from a good mother and perhaps not a good person either.

Still, in fairness to her, after she committed adultery with Keith – cheating on her husband while it seems pretending to be working for Keith – her family split up.  Toni claims Rusty was not very affectionate with her and their marriage was over in spirit anyway, so it should not be judged as adultery.

But that does not change the fact that someone had to take care of their adopted son. And so Toni – the single mother – took the boy at first to Albany, to let him be exposed to who she thought was the smartest man in the world.

And even if she was not a good mother, that does not obviate the fact that Toni was tormented by Keith and his minions for years. Although sometimes I think she would – during periods of lull when Keith was not bothering her – poke the bear back and start the trouble anew.

Still, her will to fight and fight back is admirable – and to hear her tell it, she had little choice in that. She said she either had to fight back or perish.

Given the fact that so many others who played a similar role as she did in Keith Raniere’s career did wind up “dead or imprisoned,” as he swore she, too, would, I believe Toni on that account.

As for many of her many stories, some may be true, some may be exaggerated and some seem to be outright lies.

She has committed herself to her stories for all time in her book, so I guess time will tell if she has told us the truth or not.

Correspondent