I’m tired of people saying there was no good in Nxivm.
Keith Raniere extracted good things from different groups. Nancy Salzman put these things together and turned them into a thing of beauty.
Without her talent, Nxivm would never have turned into the dynamic classes that it did. Without Nancy falling hook, line and sinker into believing the things Keith gave her were his own discoveries rather than direct theft of intellectual property of other cults, she would not have done it.
Barbara Bouchey and each of the women and men had their talents utilized by Keith because he had none. Each of his ladies and men did have talent and Keith exploited it.
Now, Emiliano Salinas had skill in crime, as well as charm and he grew up with that. At any rate, I went to a class and a Vanguard Week and was in prior cults, so I recognized the lies and left, but not without recognizing the clever way they put together other people’s technology, and not without recognizing the extraordinary talent and life-force within Nancy.
Every single person who stayed and compromised had their weaknesses spotted and exploited by Keith. Not that anyone who broke the law should not be exposed and called out for it. Each person exploited had a great talent or skill.
That is why they were chosen and secured by Keith. Had the entire operation been on the up and up, the various “technologies” still could have been put together and the extraordinary group gatherings could still have taken place for the good of humanity.
It’s a shame that the baby is being thrown out with the bath water. I saw terrible misuses of the so called “ tech” also, such as Scientology litigation “procedures”, and misuse of “Scientology ethics” just like Scientology did.
It is amazing that not only did Keith steal and claim helpful technologies. But he also stole the insane parts of the same. It is as if he has no actual creativity or differentiation or ability to discern on his own.
He is the ultimate “parasite”, and must exploit the talent of others to create anything worthwhile and then screw that up too. In some unconscious way, it is no joke that his greatest misuse of others’ discoveries was that involving the concepts around the word, “suppressive”.
And indeed, the same misuse of the term happened in Scientology. And caused it to schism in the 1980s
Furthermore, the former cult member “G” is right as the “tech” is so compromised, but one can find crimes in all religions and cults and governments.
To become a logical thinker, one must learn logic. A subject now missing from school curriculum. Logic and debate should be part of education, I believe, to get entirely rid of black and white thinking.
Isn’t the “good” in NX really just an illusion created by the NLP, love-bombing, and group think etc?
Aren’t the members re-programmed to think they are dealing with their issues or weaknesses, when in reality their issues and weaknesses are exploited by NX which then gives them the illusion of self improvement in return for their money, their sex and their minds?
You make a good point. Much of what individuals may think was “good” about NXIVM, was really “bad” in disguise.
That all depends on how deep you got into NXIVM. Shallow, there was probably a net good. When you got in deeper, it got bad. VERY bad. By all accounts, there were many who only swam in the kiddy pool (pun noted, but not intended).
I’d say that’s true.
A certain flip side I’ve observed, is that particularly at the lower levels, members of such groups may also get some benefit from the camaraderie and support found in being around other well-intended people trying to improve themselves and contribute to the world. The upper echelons of an organization like NXIVM may exploit that – it’s effectively one of the sorts of “bait” that lures people – and take undue credit for it, but it still may be a real, and positive, phenomenon.
As many Catholic saints (and I believe the movie “The Exorcist”) have said, Satan isn’t dangerous because he lies, but because he mixes truth with the lies.
So part of NXIVM was good? Would you willingly drink a cup of coffee described as “mostly good” because it only had a little cyanide in it?
Jim, just as no one would willing drink cyanide, people didn’t join NXIVM knowing that the organization was involved in criminal activity. Do you really think people knew what was going on at the time they began taking classes, and they still joined regardless?
Frank once did several lengthy articles on how many NXIVM participants (other than the top echelon) not only failed to flourish in their lives and careers, but actually wound up broke and ruined at the end of the day. In fact, lucrative careers were lost, including those in medicine, writing and more.
So, if the courses helped some feel better and think better, where did that lead? To success of any kind? No, it seems they led to divorce, poverty, servitude and shame. Someone please relate ONE success story linked to the “tech” or the courses.
The coaches and teachers were not licensed mental health professionals – they’re experts in peddling a closely disguised scam, IMO. I suggest throwing the “baby” (and an ugly baby it is) out with the bath water. If there was ever any good in NXIVM, it has been negated, cancelled and rendered insignificant ten times over.
Keith stole a lot of his material that was taught in his courses. He didn’t pick bad stuff. Some of the material was helpful. A lot of what was taught was just NLP. There are many benefits of learning NLP.
However, for me personally, the following is where I found the biggest value – Keith taught about shifters, parasites, Luciferians etc. Most of this specific material was him teaching us how his brain worked. Believe it or not, this is great material to have in the real world as you are able to recognize people acting this way.
It’s a little weird to me that many are so attached to getting ex-members to say that the NXIVM courses had no good within them. Most who took the courses would agree that saying such would be a lie. And yet, I don’t think you could find a single person on the planet that would say they’d take the courses again if they had a life do-over.
I’ll bet you could find people who would take a course again.
There is hardly any philosophy or teaching or spiritual practice that can’t be turned into a cult by corrupt, power hungry people. Just have an infallible leadership, and a belief that “We are the one and only hope mankind has. We are the only hope to save the world. Therefore the ends justify the means.”
That said, there are some ideas that lend themselves more easily to a dynamic of control. Declaring that you are not a victim can be self-empowering. But used wrongly, it can also let a perpetrator off the hook.
I’m glad we are living in a time when cults are being exposed. I hope it will help people avoid the pitfalls. I hope it will prevent people from so easily giving their power away. But it’s a constant game of whack-a-mole. In my opinion, even environmentalism is becoming cult-like. Pollution is real, and it’s laudable to take steps to clean up our air, land, and water. But measures such as the Green New Deal have a strong whiff of “The world is going to end unless you do what we say and give us absolute power!” Somehow, such ideas always end up enriching and empowering the few at the expense of the many.
It’s too bad they don’t teach more critical thinking in school. But as George Carlin said, ‘’Governments don’t want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation.”
It looks like in some ways we are all in a big cult. Will we wake up and take back our power?
Finally, something intelligent. Bravo. Bring back the trivium and quadrivium. It’s the only hope for the future.
Great thoughts, Dianne. Btw, enjoyed your pics and story from last hearing too.
Thanks for the kind words, Heidi.
Barbara and company, What good came from you creating this organization? You speak so highly and defend it’s goodness and yet I still haven’t seen even one paragraph written on the behalf of it’s goodness. We have all heard hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Is this the true reason for your take down of the organization you helped create?
I think it was the volume of lawsuits that has Barb upset. She probably would have walked away and never taken any action against NXIVM if they didn’t sue her, and less than 18 hours after she left at that.
Nancy was rotten to the core. She is evil. She is our Judas. Allison won’t succumb to the evil pressures. Keith is guiding her to be healed and since she alone is to blame to take her punishment.
Good to see you back, Pea. I was concerned that the impending plea negotiations might silence you. I don’t know if you are for real or a troll, but you are always entertaining.
Pea, you can’t have it both ways honey. In the past, you have sang Nancy’s praises. Just because she doesnt want to spend the rest of her life in jail doesn’t make her rotten. Finally, she’s doing the right thing.
If your really not a troll, you’re the stupid one. Get a brain, Pea.
Western people are also very nice but the way they wreck havoc with impunity beyond its borders is nothing but pure genocide. Under the banner of “freedom and liberty ” and, of course, for the good of all.
In reality, the West is all about a bunch of hellbent greedy narcissist cunt’s who want to rule the world. Its population gladly fuels the Western path of genocide of other countries. NXVIM on the other hand is no different.
Eastern people are also very nice but the way they wreck havoc with impunity beyond its borders is nothing but pure genocide. Under the banner of “we’re victims” and, of course, for the good of all.
In reality, the East is all about a bunch of hellbent greedy narcissist cunt’s who want to rule the world. Its population gladly fuels the Eastern path of genocide of other countries. Moonies on the other hand are no different.
What good is something if it helps a person then the developer/leader is exposed for destroying lives, financial crimes, sexual crimes, abuse… What good is it then to forever question its use and ask if it was all worth it. It’s left people empty and confused even if they found some good in it. It’s set them back and destroyed the trust in ever finding a way or someone to help them. People continue to suffer.
It makes NXIVM a mixture of good and bad. The bad should be punished regardless of the good it produced. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?
Do you argue there was good in the African slave trade too? Every slave had a better life in the West. Would you fund that today?
There were African tribes that sold slaves who would agree slave trade was a great deal. There are at least 20-30 million slaves being sold/traded today around the world. I wouldn’t fund it, but others still are funding it. Today.
All cults initially offer their members beneficial philosophies/teachings/practices. That’s the bait in the trap. The control and indoctrination comes later, in incremental stages.
Nancy not only pimped out her own daughters, SHE FREAKIN’ HAD SEX WITH KEITH ALSO!
No decent mother does that.
Good? SHE’S MORALLY BANKRUPT!
I don’t want to see her or Lauren or Michelle or any of them on the streets of the capital district, at the mall, at Stuyvesant Plaza, anywhere nearby.
If I ever see Nancy out and about, I will publicly shame her. I will let everyone know who is in our midst, just what she has done, enabled to be done to other women and girls.
I am no feminist BUT I am infuriated at anyone, ANYONE, attempting to sanitize, defend and repackage NXIVM or any cult.
I, I have been in a cult, a cult in many ways similar to NXIVM, and let me tell you, it’s all about power and sex, nothing else. Who the top dog can f $%k and how many.
Don’t anyone get the idea to resell this filth. Do not defend the indefensible.
Nancy, a so called nurse. Two doctors.
And what did they do.
We all know.
You want to bettter yourself? Spend 20 bucks on a book.
But do not be suckered into this filth.
OMG someone poke me in the eyes with a sharp object.
Now that the the superseding indictment is out, plea deals are in the works, status hearing is over, and Nancy Salzman has cut her dea,l the bleeding NXIVM hearts are crawling out of the woodwork.
There seems to be enough that believe in the “good” that were not arrested that a spin off cult could be started. It could be called MEXIN, TEXIN, or DOITAGAIN. How about Self Awareness Success Programs, I Didn’t Get Enough Success Program, I Can Spend More Programs.
Barbara Bouchey could be the President of North America and Edgar Boone could run South America. Sara Bronfman could do European Nations.
Instead of sashes, you could have gem pins just like Amway until you reached a certain levels, cars like Mary Kay.
Throw out the dirty water and keep the baby. I’m sure it will be a great success. Remember you have to be out of NXIVM for five years to not compete. Oops, that’s right, their out of business.
On your website, please have an opt out. One cult is enough for a lot of us in any life time.
Amway has gem pins no matter how high in scam level you get: https://www.google.com/search?q=amway+pins&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=YpEijzyzoA7doM%253A%252CTZ1G-2jpnOv-ZM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSe7Km0GVZTW7-OdWcPW1aXXnywKw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIqubl7pXhAhUDSK0KHdusCIUQ9QEwAnoECAcQCA#imgrc=YpEijzyzoA7doM:
GTFOH GTFOH GTFOH
Seriously, Nicky Cline aka ‘Pea Onyou’ are you back on Frank Report?
You do realize your wifey is about to spill the beans on your Fake Marriage.
What kind of drugs are you on?
The “marriage” between Pea Onyu and Allison Mack will be the only marriage either woman ever has.
Neither one of them has the maturity to form a stable relationship with a adult of either gender.
How about some concrete examples of things people in this group did that were good? like for example, yes the Catholic church has pedophiles in its ranks, but it also does charity work and community service.
There are lots of people who said NXIVM helped them think more clearly, make better decisions, etc. But like most of the critics, they don’t come forward and speak up until it’s already over.
STOP IT RIGHT NOW!
NXIVM ergo Nancy, Keith. Clare, Sara went after anyone and everyone financed by the Bronfman money, for decades in some cases, ruining lives, costing lives, impoverishing lives and YOU AND BARBARA HAVE THE AUDACITY TO SAY THERE IS GOOD AND IT SHOULD BE SALVAGED???
A FREAKIN PONZI SEX PEDO NOT EVEN LEGALLY QUALIFIED TO GIVE PSYCOTHERAPY SCHEME???
Yeah, I’m yelling.
Bsrbara, I suspect you want to head up the resurrection of NXIVM .
It’s a Ponzi scheme.
Get over it, get over Keith, get therapy, get on with life, Barbara.
We, in the capital district, don’t want any of you here in anyway, shape or form.
We want all traces of NXIVM burned to ashes.
Put a period on this chapter of your life and ours.
Two so called suicides, I call them murders, women starved, branded, enslaved…..don’t you feel for your sisters?
I wish you were delusional but frankly I come to the conclusion you are beyond redemption.
If anyone thinks to resurrect this in my neighborhood under any pseudonym I will be out front protesting, on TV outing you. I will give interview after interview.
I won’t stand for it and I can guarantee other mothers who love their daughters won’t either.
Boy, talk about our own sex betraying us.
Did you think the cult you previously belonged to was “all bad” while you were a member? How could the cult/organization have attracted members/customers if they didn’t have anything positive to offer?
It surprising how black and white your thinking is, considering you claim to have been a cult victim yourself.
Flowers, from early on, within weeks, I started to question things I suspected.
I was young, naive, innocent. The cognitive dissonance was high (I didn’t know the word at the time but I do now and what it means).
Things were kept from me. Like NXIVM you had to work your way up by taking classes but only if your area leader vetted you and that vetting depended on not just tithing but abundantly sharing, bringing in new recruits by inviting them to fellowship, getting them to take the foundational class, always projecting an up mood, using sex, yes, sex as a recruitment tool, living with other like minded believers, going WOW, only reading, and listening to, approved ministry material, etc.
Get the picture?
I did question, many times, what I suspected. I was hauled in front of leadership, chastisrd, beaten down, verbally attacked.
Just like in Scientology there were “knowledge reports” though under another name.
I was a sheep among wolves.
I realized, after I left, I had been “marked and avoid” aka shunned because I wasn’t invited to ministry functions, then again, I was slowly asserting my independance by coming and going as I pleased, etc.
I was not about to do, as I saw someobe else, burn ALL my bridges and be totally reliant on what crumbs they might toss me if I were a good believer on their eyes.
Poverty is a harsh mistress. I knew what it was like to sleep in my car thus I was not about to “believe God” as they termed it and leave everything.
My safety net was me.
I believe my breaking point was when a WOW family I knew tried to set me up aka pimp me out to a guy they were attempting to recruit.
The look on my fsce said it all. I was horrified.
As I said I was shunned by the group though I lived in the same house.
My housemate left. My fellowship leader, and the other two believers, ignored me for the most part. My area leader, who I thought was my friend, stopped all contact with me.
I moved. Alone.
No one ever contacted me from the group, ever,to this day.
I was truly alone. No family, no friends.
Just my job.
I would go to work, come home and cry. For an entire year I cried.
I made it through, though, as you can see
Names change, behaviors do not and all of these groups use the same dynamics and it all comes down to power and sex. Just like NXIVM.
Oddly, about, oh, 15 years after leaving I located the couple who were the area leader, whom I thought were my friends. We exchanged emails a few times and then…the invitation to a ministry get together.
I balked saying I thought we were friends once upon a time, that I thought to rekindle a friendship.
Her reply was cold. She said this was all she had to give me.
See nothing changed. Even though her and her husband were no longer affiliated with the founders group their incarnation of it was the same old schtick.
This is why I am so adamant NXIVM must not in any form be resurrected.
Let it die and be buried 6 feet under, away from the light of day so no one is ever hurt by it again.
By the way I do not term myself a victim.
Survivor, yes, but not a victim.
I have learned to measure the good vs the bad. Too many people have been hurt thus NXIVM must perish.