Scott Johnson recently criticized Joe O’Hara on this forum in response to Joe’s posting of a story about Nancy Salzman.
First, Scott carped on Joe for his conviction on what I firmly believe were trumped up federal charges in Texas. I am personally convinced Joe was the victim of both NXIVM – which had previously bankrupted him and falsely indicted him – and the DOJ’s coercive plea bargaining tactics.
Scott wouldn’t likely know much about the challenges Joe faced in going up against a ruthless federal prosecutor, quite possibly NXIVM influenced, and a biased, if not corrupt judge set to hang Joe down El Paso way.
The fact that Joe, who was still in bankruptcy court at the time, was being represented by a court-appointed, former used-car salesman turned lawyer only added to the challenge.
And just to top things off, Joe had undergone four major surgeries between the time he was indicted and the time he pled guilty. The FBI actually sent two of its agents to talk to Joe’s primary doctor — who confirmed that Joe was in danger of dying at the time.
The whole charge against Joe was insane. It concerned a mere $5,000 political contribution – that was made in the open, fully reported, and paid via a check [not cash] from a Political Action Committee (PAC) that he had established for just that purpose.
The official who accepted the money was quite possibly corrupt but Joe got no benefit from him. The sum was insignificant. It was a legal contribution. There was no quid pro quo.
But there was a vengeful DOJ. Joe was facing 20 years and a wrathful, biased, likely politically motivated judge. So, he took a plea bargain. A sure 2.5 years versus the risk of a 20-year sentence had he gone to trial with his used-car salesman/attorney.
Innocent people in America do this every day with a DOJ run amok.
We have now achieved in America the exact opposite of Blackstone’s rule. Blackstone wrote that “It is better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent suffer.”
The Department of Justice in America has reversed that principle. In the interest of conviction statistics and career advancement – and the obloquy of admitting a mistake – the DOJ now practices, in effect, the reverse of Blackstone: It is better
Now is not the time to discuss it, but I have evidence that NXIVM was working through lawyers to help ensure Joe was indicted on these phony charges.
It was Nxivm’s policy to incentivize lawyers and consultants to get an indictment on one of their enemies. And Joe was definitely an enemy.
My bet is that money changed hands when Joe was indicted.
But, knowing nothing of the background, Scott Johnson wrote:
“Joe, you left out the part about being sorry for ripping off the school system in El Paso, TX.”
Joe O’Hara replied,
Scott,
1) Have you ever considered the possibility of there being a link between El Paso and NXIVM?
(2) Why do you think that I have to explain every aspect of my life to you just because I occasionally post a story about NXIVM? If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it.
***
Scott further commented on Joe’s story about Nancy. He was referring to the part of Joe’s post where Joe said he observed Kathy Russell working as almost a slave in Nancy Salzman’s garden – deprived in the hot sun of something to drink.
Scott wrote, “If Joe had shared this story several years ago, it may have saved a lot of people from harm. But like most people, he didn’t.”
Before getting to Joe’s response, I think it is important for me to note that Joe is certainly one of the
Even Toni Natalie, who has fought the longest, would probably have to acknowledge that Joe has fought as hard – and suffered as much or more – than even she did.
And, as Toni tells the story, it was because Joe reached out to her back in 2005 that she herself did not end up going to prison on more trumped-up NXIVM charges.
Toni has told many people that if she had to choose anyone to be in a foxhole with – it would be Joe O’Hara. Joe never forgets what side he’s on. And he never stops fighting just because the odds are stacked against him.
In any event, Scott knows nothing of this. How could he? He wasn’t there during the thick of the fight. When it was actually dangerous to be an enemy of NXIVM.
Scott often condemns people for posting anonymous comments. But if he faced the terrorism by litigation and by the extra-legal means used by NXIVM, narrowly focused on a few individuals, with the Bronfman money and Raniere’s hatred of people – Scott might better understand the reason for prudence.
Why even today, many people are still frightened by NXIVM.
These NXIVM bastards have influenced courts, prosecutors, State Troopers, even the Department of Justice – and who knows what they would do – if the courts and prosecutors failed them?
Scott has made a lot of noise about Amway. So have a lot of others. Amway is a much bigger operation than NXIVM and has not been known to do the illegal, unethical things NXIVM does to its enemies.
It’s safe to criticize Amway.
For many years, until Joe and others made it different, it was very unsafe to criticize Nxivm.
In any event, Scott chides Joe for not telling a certain story earlier.
This finally prompted Joe to write a longer reply to Scott – which deserves in my opinion – its own separate post:
Joe wrote:
“These are the kind of comments that confirm just how uninformed you are when it comes to the history of NXIVM.
“Beginning in early 2005, Toni Natalie and I started turning over every bit of information we had to a variety of governmental agencies and officials (This information was compiled into several 5″, 3-ring binders). This included federal agencies and officials, New York State agencies and officials, and agencies and officials in Albany County and Saratoga County.
“In addition to turning over materials, we also participated in numerous meetings to explain everything we knew about what was going on – and to answer questions about NXIVM’s operations. Once again, this included federal officials, New York State officials, and officials from Albany County and Saratoga County.
“Along the way, Toni and I identified a few people who were willing to put their careers – and, in some cases, their lives – at risk to take on NVIVM. This included Dennis Yusko and Jim Odato from The Times Union, Chet Hardin from Metroland, and John Tighe from Saratoga In Decline. Later, Frank Parlato also stepped up to the front-line of the battle.
“Those of us who have been engaged in this battle from the beginning are always pleased to see more people joining in to help take down Raniere’s criminal enterprise. But we really don’t have time to respond to uninformed people who question our motives or our tactics — or who make baseless allegations about what we did or didn’t do in terms of a specific issue at a different point in time.
“You claim to be an expert on Amway – and to have been involved in a long-term battle to take that operation down. When it comes to Amway, I don’t question your history, your motivation, your strategy, or your tactics – and I certainly don’t make baseless allegations about what you did or didn’t do in your battle against Amway because I don’t know enough about that situation to raise any such questions. Nor do I raise questions about any other aspect of your life that is unrelated to Amway because I don’t see why such questions would be relevant.
“But that’s just me…”
Frank Parlato 
Janine Morrison 
J.J. O'Hara 
Richard Luthmann 
Marie White 
Paul Serran
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All of your “care” is words, not action.
I don’t think you’re going to like the “action” I’m contemplating serving you with, Schlock.
And I don’t think the anti-Semite defamation league is going to appreciate your lies to incite violence against Semites, as you’ve demonstrated in your anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish rants, which is a symptom of real anti-Semitic brain disorders. To name at least one of your personalities’ mental issues.
There’s mental health help for you in most prisons.
Scott, I’ve asked you before: what “action” do you want? If I’m not mistaken Frank’s posting of Nikki Clyne’s selfie helped locate her and Raniere at their second Mexico hideout. If the prosecutors have any sense, they read this blog. They are likely gleaning important information and tips. That is why you should let people like Heidi, Just Sayin’, Anonymous, and others with first hand knowledge talk without fear of your barbs.
I get it – please speak up if you have reason to believe someone is an imposter, because that is a valid concern. But you seem to be on the attack all the time. Why?
People who rarely or never post anymore: Ionwhitepoetry, Toni Natalie, Susan Dones, Barbara Bouchey, Darth VanDouche, and many more. Now you seem to want to drive Joe O’Hara away, too. Is that what you want?
Frank is spending a lot of time and energy keeping this site up and running. Let’s not torpedo it. He shouldn’t have to turn himself inside out policing it.
As far as Amway and MLMs are concerned, I am over it. In the 80’s, I knew what they were – glorified chain letters cloaked in evangelical fervor. Anyone with half a brain nowadays can figure out what they are, by doing a bit of internet checking. Besides, it’s not illegal in the U.S. to spend your money on stupid investments.
I know you and others got hoodwinked years ago (including, by the way, Raniere’s Consumers Buyline folks), but I think it’s time to let it go. Or, better yet – pour your formidable energy into creating scorching exposes on Amway, like Frank does on NXIVM.
Scott won’t allow survivors to talk about their experience — he is quick to judge and accuse in the most intimidating way he can manage when they do post and make an effort to participate. Idk why he does this. But, he is here for his own reasons, reasons that go beyond his rage posting about AMWAY and, I guess, NX.
I want you to talk all you want, … You can even talk on my radio show….
That’s what you say… but, I can’t help thinking it’s an invitation to a beheading. No one wants to be on your show and it’s time you asked yourself why
Yes, he shuts down good dialog – knowingly or not – in an attempt to be “right,” or call someone out for not taking “action.” Or, in an attempt to turn the conversation to Amway and MLM’s in general. I don’t get it.
He has very some good things to day, but his stepping all over people cancels it out.
I view this site as sort of a support blog (like the one I used after my husband passed away), which should be informative, warm and welcoming. It should not be a battleground. I say, leave that to the Courts.
Scott, can you be nice?
I am nice, you’re too sensitive.
How could Frank’s posting of Nikki’s picture have helped? Do you honestly not realize that enforcement would already have be keeping tabs on the SM accounts of those involved in NXIVM?
Probably the strangest part of that (if the picture really did tip-off law enforcement) is that Nikki didn’t realize this herself and shut down her SM accounts before.
Or did she realize it and she deliberately posted that picture? Considering that she hasn’t been arrested….
I can’t say enough good about Joe O’Hara, what he’s done and suffered enormously for to help NX victims — of whom there would be far more and in far worse shape had not Joe O’Hara manned up for justice. He’s taken NX hits time and again and often for others but got right back in the saddle and led the charge against NX and all the evil it stands for in battle after battle; even when the less courageous deserted in fear or were taken out for longer stretches in prison.
The same absolutely goes for Toni Natalie but it’s up to them to reveal what they wish to, when and where. I slip some, sometimes but try to avoid speaking for others.
But I know, as Joe writes, sharing on FR has become suspect among NX survivors if only at minimum due to the hassle and waste of time required to respond to the often outlandish accusations, assumptions, misconstruations, that occur far too often on FR than would normally — and we’re not dealing in normal with NX. More like paranormal, lol.
Plus, I’ve found strangely that I feel safer on here with a group of some very well-meaning people and other victims who get what I’m afraid of to advise and keep an eye out. Rather be harassed on FR than wake up in a Mexican prison and I don’t care who thinks I’m exaggerating, that’s how I feel sometimes. And Joe, and Toni, Catherine, Mark, Susan, Kim, Rick, Peter, Bonnie, India, Natalie and many of you have been there. But no one so much or so fearlessly willing to carry on to the end of this as Joe O’Hara.
How fucking dare you Scott Johnson, Dennis Burke and any of you filthy trolling fuckers try to shame and discredit a just, descent proven man like Joe in front of us. Maybe you just didn’t know, if Joe wants to give you that excuse, but now you have none of you ever did.
Heidi: Your words:
“…I’ve found strangely that I feel safer on here with a group of some very well-meaning people and other victims who get what I’m afraid of to advise and keep an eye out. Rather be harassed on FR than wake up in a Mexican prison and I don’t care who thinks I’m exaggerating, that’s how I feel sometimes.”
Heidi, this breaks my heart. Thanks for your bravery. Hang in there and please and don’t get sick of us. You have so much to offer. Some of us who were only tangentially involved – and others – really DO care.
I am so deeply sorry for your sister and I hope you have Peace during this Holiday season.
Thank you, Orange. ❤️
I’d like to echo OCD and her support of you Heidi. I fail to understand why people posting here recently and those who have posted here for more than a year continue to come after you or anyone who has real knowledge about NXVIM. I still believe they crave attention and, I can only guess, you would have given anything to not have this spotlight on you. I’m sure you wish your sister and yourself had never met KAR or the others. People should understand you have nothing to gain from continuing to be part of this blog other than helping to educate others to this evil. I, for one, again applaud your courage.
I know Im late to this feast of goodwill, but hear hear Heidi OCD and Leon!!!
The mission to “take down Amway” is a lost cause before anyone would even begin to start. There is nothing to “bring down”. The majority figure it out quickly and it’s a lesson learned. They don’t think they were extorted by some sinister crime organization.
Equating Amway to NXIVM or any other harmful cult is in of itself somewhat delusional. Most people know Amway isn’t going to make them wealthy. The people that do give it a chance rarely look at themselves as victims because they were warned by friends, family, anyone they asked and it’s pretty well known with a reputation that proceeds itself. Who could possibly be devastated financially by this company ? How does one keep throwing money at Amway thinking they are actually “business owners” and the money is an investment in their “company”?
Amway doesn’t have victims. There is no comparison other than the mlm connection. Amway doesn’t need taken down. To be saved from Amway one simply needs saved from themselves. Not the case with cults
There is an illegal pyramid and a RICO fraud to bring down. Nobody should have to go through what you describe as some kind of fraternity or sorority hazing. Whether they think they were ripped off or not isn’t the issue, the issue is Amway and other MLM scams are breaking the law. I’m not equating other MLMs to NXIVM, they are FAR worse than NXIVM. Would you like me to list some of the deaths MLM scams have caused again? Perhaps someone will comment on these deaths this time? As you’ve said before, you don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to Amway or other MLM scams, and you just proved it. You should come on my show so I can explain all of this ignorance.
What deaths? Deaths you link to Amway the way Shadow links every crime to Mack? Amway has been gone after time and again and comes out free to operate, maybe with making some changes here or there. So maybe they’re illegal and the fix is in or maybe they’re not.
What isn’t in dispute is you fooled by them. And you’ll say you and 10 million others. But were 10 million others? Did the others get in, get out and no harm done?
You’re obsessed because you were made a fool. You say you didn’t have the internet to hear the stories of others and to research and yet the majority, even in the 80s and 90s (who am I kidding, way before then) knew all about Amway.
But you didn’t listen to them did you ? You probably called those warning you away from Amway cowards and lazy because they didn’t want to be IBOs. Independent Business Owners. What a crock. Amway isn’t a business it’s a hobby. Ask the IRS
You even spent time during your mission to take down Amway defending their business model. In the beginning you only took issue with the tool scam.
No Scott Amway and mlms are only dangerous to a small percentage of the millions that sign up with recruiters. Most sign up never intending to do anything, it’s just to stop being harassed. Others use it as a hobby. A small few, believe the rags to riches pitch and alienate anyone that tries to reason with them. Who did you piss off that tried to help you? Mom? Dad?
They were right. You were wrong. So wrong. And it only took 10 years to figure out what others knew practically from birth.
And now you have this noble goal of helping others like yourself if only other people and groups would stop being cowards and take action. Action you never quite explain other than if they come on your radio show or make a simple phone call.
Now you’re here on Frank Report trying to make it about Amway and mlms because your blog reaches nobody but those few searching for “Is Amway a Scam”? You’ve been on countless forums burning bridges with people that could help you and now here pissing people off for no good reason. And talking about a radio show. A show that is near impossible to find so impossible to having an impact on the gullible looking for information on their get rich quick mlm.
My patience has run out. You’re an intelligent guy that is also ignorant and childlike with your tantrums, your responses and attempts to always be right always be the smartest in the room. Was that taught by Amway? Does that explain you and Raniere? You target anyone with something to offer this blog. Joe, Heidi, Toni and all the rest.
I wish you luck commandeering Frank Report. If you don’t succeed you’ll lose the largest audience you’ve ever had.
What deaths?
[These deaths, and I’m sure there are many others that have not been traced back to MLM scams: https://nypost.com/2013/08/17/death-of-a-dream-top-herbalife-pitchman-takes-his-own-life/ and http://allmlmfacts.org/2018/09/le-vel-its-a-killer-of/ There are also numerous bankruptcies, divorces, destroyed family and friend relationships, massive debts, etc., so there is a lot of damage besides deaths.]
Deaths you link to Amway the way Shadow links every crime to Mack?
[No, deaths and other damage that can be directly linked to MLM scams.]
Amway has been gone after time and again and comes out free to operate, maybe with making some changes here or there.
[If you expect a multi-billion/year company to go away the second somebody complains, you’re wrong and immature. A long, sustained effort is needed, but well worth it in terms of helping others not get scammed for the time, money, and effort others lost.]
So maybe they’re illegal and the fix is in or maybe they’re not.
[There is no doubt Amway and many MLMs are illegal, as they operate almost identical to the way some MLMs that have been shut down or forced to operate differently have operated.]
What isn’t in dispute is you fooled by them.
[Correct.]
And you’ll say you and 10 million others.
[I say it because that’s what the numbers show. For Amway alone, about half of the 3 million or so drop out and are replaced every single year.]
But were 10 million others?
[Anybody that gives any money to a scam was fooled, that’s obvious.]
Did the others get in, get out and no harm done?
[You don’t get into any MLM without paying money, spending time, and effort. Many who got in were as lazy, scared, etc., as the commenters on this website, so they lost a lot less. Others applied themselves because they thought what was presented to them was accurate and the MLM was a legitimate business, and they weren’t lazy, scared, etc., so they lost more.]
You’re obsessed because you were made a fool.
[I’m “obsessed” because it’s fools like you who don’t care about others being scammed.]
You say you didn’t have the internet to hear the stories of others and to research and yet the majority, even in the 80s and 90s (who am I kidding, way before then) knew all about Amway.
[What is your proof that “the majority” knew all about Amway? The fact that Amway and many other MLMs scams still exist is evidence that many still are not aware of MLMs, let alone MLM scams. 4-5 million people in the U.S. alone turn 18 every single year, how do you expect them to become aware of MLM scams? In the prime target age of 18-28, that means 40-50 million people in the U.S. alone have massive targets on their backs and don’t even know it. It was my experience most people I approached didn’t have the self confidence to start their own Amway business, not that “knew all about” Amway being a scammed. Most of them had never heard of MLM, let alone Amway, or the ones that did were told this was a completely different method compared to what it used to be (which was untrue, but I didn’t know this.) In fact, you even told me you didn’t know about Amway until you talked to others.]
But you didn’t listen to them did you ?
[There was nobody to talk to, as i wasn’t told it was Amway before I was shown the marketing plan and was told not to get input from others, because they didn’t know how Amway operated as the marketing plan was being shown. I was also taught how to overcome those who didn’t like Amway, basically that they didn’t know what they were talking about, the upline was there to help us because they don’t make money until we made money, etc. It’s all very slick, these are sophisticated scammers.]
You probably called those warning you away from Amway cowards and lazy because they didn’t want to be IBOs.
[See above.]
Independent Business Owners. What a crock. Amway isn’t a business it’s a hobby. Ask the IRS
[It is a crock, from the standpoint that there are numerous and complex rules involved, IBOs are anything but independent. But it sounds good, doesn’t it?]
You even spent time during your mission to take down Amway defending their business model.
[No, I didn’t. I emphasized the significance of the tool scam over the lack of retail sales because it is is a much larger problem, and early in my campaign I didn’t fully understand the significance of the lack of retail sales, but I never defended Amway’s business model.]
In the beginning you only took issue with the tool scam.
[I took issue with the tool scam because it is the largest problem, and most others were ignoring it. i wanted to emphasize it, so I focused on it to help others focus on it.]
No Scott Amway and mlms are only dangerous to a small percentage of the millions that sign up with recruiters.
[A small percentage who sign up of the millions that sign up is still a much larger number than NXIVM ever dreamed of scamming. In fact, most people who joined NXIVM were not technically scammed, they simply tool a course or two, which I think they paid too much for, but they were willing to overpay as a retail customer so there’s nothing illegal, and left. And Amway has spawned Raniere and many other characters who have gone on to scam people outside of Amway, from what they learned while in Amway.]
Most sign up never intending to do anything, it’s just to stop being harassed.
[Some may do that, nobody did that in my experience and how we were taught. If somebody wasn’t interested, the rallying cry was “NEXT!” which meant to move on to another person. However, many do sign up, which means paying Amway money to join and paying for some overpriced prodcuts, which contributes to the illegal pyramid crime, and then chicken out, either before they contact somebody or when the first or second person they approach turns them down, because they have sensitive egos, which describes most people who join or post on this website.]
Others use it as a hobby.
[Others don’t apply themselves and the IRS views them as running a hobby and not a business, but a scam is hardly a hobby.]
A small few, believe the rags to riches pitch and alienate anyone that tries to reason with them.
[In the early 90s when I joined, not only was there no internet, there was massive growth that could be witnessed, first hand, at the various meetings and company growth reports. This fueled belief in what turned out to be massive growth of a scam.]
Who did you piss off that tried to help you? Mom? Dad?
[I didn’t piss off anybody, mom even bought skin care products from me. They were as clueless as most people about Amway being a scam.]
They were right. You were wrong. So wrong. And it only took 10 years to figure out what others knew practically from birth.
[They were clueless, as are most people. It actually took 12 years before I was presented with evidence that Amway is a scam, and if people knew Amway and other MLMs were scams practically from birth, why are these scams still around?]
And now you have this noble goal of helping others like yourself if only other people and groups would stop being cowards and take action.
[That’s right, in this respect it’s just like NXIVM and the DOJ stories Frank has been writing about more recently. It took strong people, many of whom died, to start this country, and the weaklings are willing to give it all up. The strong people aren’t, so step aside, cowards. About 1/3 who founded this country were loyal to the U.S., another 1/3 to the British, and the remaining 1/3 were undecided. The Patriots won, against all odds. It must happen again or this grand experiment will be lost.]
Action you never quite explain other than if they come on your radio show or make a simple phone call.
[The actions are fully explained on my websites. Have you read them? And what better way to explain something than through communicating it by personal interactions?]
Now you’re here on Frank Report trying to make it about Amway and mlms because your blog reaches nobody but those few searching for “Is Amway a Scam”?
[NXIVM is an MLM, the founder Raniere started at Amway and I saw significant similarities between NXIVM and Amway, and why not go to where the readers are? I also reach out to people on social media, my radio show, etc.]
You’ve been on countless forums burning bridges with people that could help you and now here pissing people off for no good reason.
[IF people want to help me, it’s because they believe in the cause of helping others not get scammed, not in some elementary school-age thinking of “will you be my friend” nonsense. Others burn the bridge, not me. In the past, I’ve tried to be “friends” with many people first, only to be disappointed, it only wastes my time.]
And talking about a radio show. A show that is near impossible to find so impossible to having an impact on the gullible looking for information on their get rich quick mlm.
[That is the other side of the double-edged sword of the internet. It’s easy to get the word out, but there’s so many people doing it that a particular source is not easy to find, let alone believe is accurate. That’s why it’s important to work together, but many people are blind to that concept. Or too scared. Or too lazy, etc. I’m not looking for people who are too scared or lazy, etc., I’m looking for decent people who are willing to help.]
My patience has run out. You’re an intelligent guy that is also ignorant and childlike with your tantrums, your responses and attempts to always be right always be the smartest in the room.
[You never had any patience. You have spent your effort in finding excuses to cover up your cowardice, laziness, etc. As in many cases, any excuse works, if all you’re doing is looking for one. You don’t know me, you traded a few comments and talked with me on the phone briefly. It’s not hard to be the smartest in the room among this group.]
Was that taught by Amway? Does that explain you and Raniere? You target anyone with something to offer this blog. Joe, Heidi, Toni and all the rest.
[I seek the truth, and that was definitely not taught by Amway or Raniere. The people you mentioned love to tell their half of the story, just like Amway and Raniere. I am after the full truth.]
I wish you luck commandeering Frank Report. If you don’t succeed you’ll lose the largest audience you’ve ever had.
[The comments section is hardly commandeering very much. You’re far from my first rodeo, Mitch. I’ve seen many of people like you come and go. I’ll leave you with these words from Teddy Roosevelt, if only you could grasp their true meaning, “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” You can find other great Roosevelt quotes here, but you have to have a spine and guts to understand them: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/44567.Theodore_Roosevelt
Well said, Mitch. Saying all MLM’s are as bad as NXIVM is like saying all “religions” are as bad as Scientology, which is classified as a religion. There’s really NO comparison and no excuse for anyone allegedly opposed to the criminal practices of, say, Scientology to rob the collection plate at Mass in a Catholic Church because they’re a Scientology victim and on a “mission from God” to bring down all religions!
Thank you Mitch. This comment and that on another thread is well-stated and thought out. The more first person accounts posted to Frank Report show just how wide a net was cast by NXIVM and highlights the level of corruption among professions that are supposed to serve and protect. That is nothing like Amway.
True statements. You know, as a side note, it occurred to me that at the time NX was formed, there was readily accessible information that Raniere’s prior venture, the MLM Consumers Buyline, not only collapsed onto itself but had been the legal target of quite a few states for operating illegally. I often wonder how Raniere, et al explained that away.
They didn’t have to explain anything away, all they had to say was the same thing Amway said, the internet is full of garbage, similar to a truck stop bathroom wall, and listen to us, not the lies on the internet. Guess where Raniere learned that? Hint: He was in Amway before Consumers’ Buyline and NXIVM.
Scott Johnson is possibly a troll hired by the Bronfman heiresses to undermine the integrity of this site.
I agree.
Anyone scouting for troll talent would have spotted Scott Johnson a mile away. Flowers smells of trolllup 5 miles away.
They contacted YOU, Frank, not vice-versa.
I never commented on Joe’s story, Heidi, and I’m hardly a “troll” for asking why you can’t seem to understand that you’re also not entitled to slander former NXIVM members (such as Kruek) whom I’m pretty sure you don’t even know. You were critical of others who you claimed were posting lies, but how can you not understand that the accusations posted against Kruek have not been proven (and could all be lies)?
Asking questions doesn’t make the commenter a troll, and it sure is telling when the person being questioned reacts in anger, instead of just answering the questions.
Well, now we know who’s picking up “Flowers” trollup tab. Damn, the Kooks really are behind everything! Lol. JK.
Frank thinks you’re too stupid to be a troll. I find you rather witty, sometimes. Poor Petalhead. Who will you play with when Scotty’s gone?
Never slandered “Kruek” and she’s fair game. You’re lying, again, what are YOU hiding since you so astutely observe:
“Someone who’s lying is hiding something.”
– Flowers, etc. in response to why she calls everyone a liar and other names even I can’t repeat without sticking soap in my mouth immediately after.
Sometimes I agree with Frank that you really are too feeble to be a pro. And, it’s “trollup” not “troll” I accused you of being, Petalhead.
You seem a wee bit angry there, “Heidi”….
You know what’s funny? It’s how when “Clicky” writes insults directed at you,
you don’t seem to mind a bit. But all I need to do is point out that your behaviour is hypocritical, and you lose it.
I’m also possibly from Pluto. LOL
BRAVO, Joe! In other words you might better comprehend, Schlock: STFU — Shut the Fuck Up unless you have something real and relevant to say, “IDIOT.”
At least I finally got you people a bit riled up. But unfortunately it’s all words, no action.
Bravo Joe!!!!
What is Scott’s problem?
His comments towards Joe show his ignorance when it comes to Raniere’s Criminal Enterprise and how little he knows about those who habe worked for decades or years to tell the truth about what this organization real mission was “give their Master whatever he wanted”.
Shame on you Scott Johnson.
This is another example of why Scott should be banned from this blog. He has proven time after time that his real intentions are to be offensive to why this blog was really created.
Frank I’m asking one more time to end Scott’s ability to get his jollies off on this blog. You have sent him to his corner, that didn’t work. He stopped posting for awhile, what a joy for your readers, and every time you allow him back on as a poster, he ends up with no impulse control.
Agreed 100%.
I said something similar a while ago – Just because Scott treated Frank well when he was a one-time guest on Scott’s radio show, I never understood how Frank consequently has felt obliged to give Scott free access here.
Clearly Scott feels a need to keep his own house clean, yet has no problem constantly pissing all over Franks place (and on any unsuspecting guest immediately upon entering, as Heidi shrewdly pointed out).
I agree too.
It’s time for Scott Johnson to go back to his own blog and stay there. The guy is a bully and a narcissist and he can’t even see it.
Asking a question is being a bully. That’s pure snowflake there, folks.
I’m the one who got Joe to describe the connection between being prosecuted and NXIVM. Why didn’t anyone else come back with that information?
Joe, you should come on my radio show, we would have a great time. Are you interested?
Scooter is like a Chihuahua in the front seat of a car in the Walmart parking lot.
Someone does a post or comment and Scooter needs to prove something to himself by barking, shaking like a mad dog and showing his rotten teeth in order to play off he’s the alpha in any situation.
Scooter complains all the time about how he was ripped off by Amway but never once has stepped up to say how he recruited people into his downline to help him with his dream of walk away residual income. How sorry are you Scooter?
I’m not sorry at all, because I didn’t know Amway was a scam when I was recruiting people. The people who should be sorry are those ripping off others and those who were scammed and are not stepping forward.
How could you not know Amway was no different than a chain letter. Simple mathematical deduction and reasoning shows that 1/4 % to 2% will be winners, and the rest losers. Why couldn’t you figure that out ahead of time? Why do continue to blame them for your faulty reasoning or did you think you were so special you could beat the odds?
For the same reason 10s of millions of others haven’t “figured it out,” it’s presented with lies. I blame them for committing crimes, why do you try to blame me and 10s of millions of others for being fooled?
You can’t even take responsibility for those you’ve hurt. You are so f..cking stupid, you deserved Amway
Asking questions does not cause harm.
Scott,
You should be sorry for ridiculing others who use this site to help each other. In many mays, this website provides the many victims a sense of safety and place to openly discuss things they have experienced over many many years. Above all, you should respect this place. When I was younger in the 70’s, I once had a friend who tried to sell me some Amway car products. At first, I was taken aback by his aggressive posturing to sell me some product in place of another product that I already liked. It was an awkward situation because he really wanted to sell me something, anything, and in some form or another, our friendship changed. I think I ended up buying a quart of some window glass cleaner. That was it for me. In the back of mind, I began to thinking of myself as his consumer every time I met him. Shortly after that, our mutual trust was gone. In getting back to my point, I hope you tread more lightly with your comments on this website instead of being the bull.
First, it’s unusual that someone actually tried to sell something, that doesn’t happen very often. He must not thought much of your potential, or he would have tried to recruit you. And I’m not saying that trying to be mean, either.
A lot of people could say the same about their involvement with NXIVM.
Yes they could, and if they didn’t commit and were not aware of any crimes being committed, they would be right, too.
Too bad the windows aren’t rolled up and it’s 95 degrees out !
Omg! 🤣 Thank you for that, Baked. I was just thinking, reading Bark’s comment, how is it that while I do truly adore dogs there is curiously one yippy, yappy species I do despise…and rarely see except at Walmart since Paris Hilton retired…BAKED Cahuahua! Hilarious. Pass the relish, please.
That’s just how I feel about yippy bitches, too.
Just one of many armchair quarterbacks who love to comment about people and situations around NXIVM / ESP that they never suffered directly from with themselves, while making insinuations and attempting to insult those of us who actually did.
Interesting to see, though, he finally managed to push Frank’s button.
Trolls are gonna troll.
Frank (and Joe) should have disclosed the Joe/NXIVM/felony conviction a long time ago.
Scott has too much free time and needs attention. I’m sorry for anyone whose heels he has nipped at.
*Stands up and claps*
Anonymously.
Very interesting and bravo to you for stepping up against such corrupt organisations. What a risk you took. People are still being threatened and their lives ruinedu and good to them finding something brave inside them to speak up, anonymously or otherwise.
We wouldn’t have known most of this information if it wasn’t for me asking Joe a question. you wouldn’t know most of this information. You’re welcome. But I don’t consider it “brave” to do the right thing. If more people did the right thing and spoke up, we would have far less NXIVMs, Amways, and other scams floating around. You get what you deserve with your silence.
Good Job, Joe. People like Scooter and Shadow and some of the alt left trolls have no idea of how much you have fought the good fight against NXIVM. The battle will continue long after Raniere has been put away as the corrupt single party State of New York must also face justice for the enabling and often their own participation in the NXIVM evil
Speaking only for myself I have never criticized Joe O’Hara.
He has done great work in exposing the corruption of NXIVM.
And Joe’s 2012 lawsuit against NXIVM is a road map exposing possible money laundering by the Bronfman-Raniere gang and dozens of their henchmen.
And I understand full well that in today’s America when a prosecutor or a cop is hell bent to nail you, they will pull any trick in the book to do so.
Nothing is more frightening than the prospect of prosecutors and cops working hand in hand with the Bronfman-Raniere gang to punish critics, whistle blowers, defectors and dissidents
We all know more now because I asked a question. You’re welcome.
Some people are just barking dogs who love to hear the sound of the noise they make. They don’t consider the validity of their comments, its effect on others lives and the history of the struggle taking place. I’ve been on this site only a short time. From my observations I believe Scott is someone who frequently posts irresponsibly without regard for truth, historical context or effect on others.
I’m afraid it’s beyond that, Double. We all post a knee-jerk reaction from time to time but no one in their right mind persists in deliberately badgering everyone, all the time (if left unchecked) despite warnings and reprehensions, appeals to both reason and compassion, the way Scott and Flowes do.
These trolls, including others, also research and distort information, track online activities, lie blatantly to discredit, manipulate and attempt to incite conflicts, etc. I’ve had comments directed at me that were exact quotes of emails and off-the-record, never published conversations I had both privately with individuals and with media in the past, particularly the Albany Times Union. And I know some of that information, those quotes, were obtained from the computers that were unjustly confiscated from Toni, Jim Odato, John Tighe and Joe by Roger Kirsopp.
That information was used to harass and silence me periodically for the past 4 or so years, which is why I opted out of on-the-record media interviews again until fairly recently and I’m still shy about spilling it in a context I have no say in, as I do at least somewhat on FR because I do know Frank and know his heart’s in the right place even if, like all of us, he has his own worldview or construct and is being psyched out or manipulated himself by the same forces.
That was a very interesting remark you made in your last post, Heidi. …
[Quote:]
“I’ve had comments directed at me that were exact quotes of emails and off-the-record, never published conversations I had both privately with individuals and with media in the past, particularly the Albany Times Union. And I know some of that information, those quotes, were obtained from the computers that were unjustly confiscated from Toni, Jim Odato, John Tighe and Joe by Roger Kirsopp.”
Could you please provide us with those comments that you believe were exact quotes taken from your emails?
Flowers – Could just be me, but I don’t think Heidi has much respect for you. Maybe try NOT commenting to her for awhile.
Heidi should not have any respect for Flowers and the comments she directs at Heidi in her bid to discredit her. I, for one, cannot understand why she continues doing it and I do wonder if she keeps it to this forum. I agree with you, Nut, that Flowers should stop directing comments toward Heidi. It’s coming off as a vendetta.
Advice from somebody who calls THEMSELVES Nutjob. LOL
I don’t believe I could possibly care less about what these particular people think about me, nutjob. That sentiment includes your opinions as well….
I’m only interested in the truth, and I certainly don’t see the truth being posted here by certain posters. So if Heidi wants to make claims that some posters here appear to be involved in hacking her emails, I believe she should provide the posts in question. She should also ask Frank to forward the IPs and email addresses of the suspected hackers to law enforcement.