Remorse: Some Have It – And Some Don’t…

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines remorse as “a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs”. What it doesn’t explain is why some ex-NXians have it and some don’t.

Just to be clear, I rather suspect that, with few exceptions, almost everyone who became part of Keith Raniere’s orbit fell victim, at least to some extent, to his sick and perverted mind. The exceptions would include those who were part of his criminal enterprise for long periods of time and who stayed with him despite knowing what they were doing was wrong; those who still refuse to accept the fact that he’s nothing but a scam artist; and those who were bought off or blackmailed into doing his bidding.

For the rest, I tend to think of Raniere as “Patient Zero” in the sense that that term used to be used in the medical community (It’s generally been replaced by the term “Index Case”). In other words, he was “…the first carrier of a communicable disease in an outbreak of related cases”.

What intrigues me, however, is how to regard those significant players in his criminal enterprise who have now silently turned away from him.

And, unfortunately, there are quite a few of them.

To be sure, they deserve to be praised for finally figuring out that they needed to get away from Raniere and NXIVM. But I wonder why some of them haven’t shown some public remorse for what they did – and who they harmed – while they were part of the NXIVM cult.

I don’t want to point out specific people because to do so might take away their chance to truly express their own remorse for their actions. I think they know who they are.

I will offer a few suggestions, along the lines of Jeff Foxworthy’s “You might be a redneck” humor:

I think it might be a good idea to express some public remorse:

– If you recruited people into NXIVM even after you started having doubts about Raniere and the cult
– If you made a significant amount of money from your participation in NXIVM – even if you didn’t pay taxes or report it as income
– If you abandoned family and/or friends in favor of the cult (You at least ought to talk to them)
– If you participated in acts that you knew were illegal
– If you recruited anyone into DOS after you yourself had been branded
– If you helped Raniere, in any way, to commit statutory rape

There are likely other instances that are worthy of some public remorse – and I hope Frank Report readers will point them out. But this isn’t a bad starting point – and I will post, without any editing whatsoever, any statements from former NXIVM members who want to express any “gnawing distress” – and publicly apologize for things they did while they were part of NXIVM.

Image result for regrets I had a few

But why should anyone feel remorse?

Prior to his arrest, could anybody have known Vanguard was not the world’s most ethical, judo-tough, top three problem solvers in the world?

There were hundreds of media and blog reports about him on the internet, stories that questioned his ethics, his financial integrity, exposed his sexual peccadilloes and [in February 2012] even accused him of statutory rape.

Is it just possible that many people who stayed knew some [or all] of these stories were true and for whatever [selfish] reason they chose to stay?  Maybe it really didn’t matter much to them  – they were making money; they were getting friends or sex or taking classes they wanted – maybe they really think – or agree with Raniere – that sex with children is OK – “if there is no pain” – or that they wanted to see certain people destroyed by Raniere because they didn’t like them much either.

It’s hard to say the reason why, with so much evidence of his being a liar and a criminal – that so many otherwise intelligent people – people who easily could have investigated and discerned the truth about him – stayed with him – enabling him, supporting him – recruited for him – telling people that he created the technology for classes that would lead people to the truth about life [from the mind of a liar] and create a ‘more noble civilization [from the heart of a savage]- to fight for him – to commit crimes for him.

Was it cowardice only? Was it brainwashing? That’s too easy – brainwashing.

Some of these people may now regret the consequences of their loyalty to a coward, conniver, and criminal – only because he’s been caught. They do not seem to regret their own motives, only the consequences – which is fascinating – in and of itself.

They regret more that he was caught and they are embarrassed than that he was a human monster destroying people and they played a hearty role in it.

Speaking of regrets, this is one of my all-time favorite videos.





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krclaviger

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  • Please please please, post relevant things. These comment sections have turned into the Jerry Springer show. Hate filled comments and trash talk should have no place here. I am tired of skipping such remarks to find educated, relevant posts. Please?

  • Kristin Kreuk does not have any remorse. She is as silent as a fart in the wind to match her “smell the fart” acting. Come on Kristin, why lie by saying you left in 2013? You are a terrible actress on television. You were a terrible actress when you performed a NXIVM play for Nancy Salzman on her birthday and you are really not convincing with your fake lying damage control statement. The NXIVM tag will continue to follow you around forever now and it’s all your fault. You could of and should of made amends in 2012. You even had a chance to attempt to do the right thing in 2017. You didn’t because you are a coward who does not want the press looking into your very deep NXIVM involvement. Having being forced to make a weak damage control statement at the end of March 2013 and having your friends lie for you in the press, you just made yourself look worse. What were you doing in 2015 and 2016 Kristin?

  • “Truth is, the people who left Hitler near the end of the war simply did so because it was no longer convenient to continue supporting him.”

    How does this commentor know so much about Adolf Hitler and his Nazi leaders? Was she there in a past life?

  • I think it’s interesting that many of Keith’s former associates are viewed by Frank as remorseful and honorable — even after they spent years enabling or assisting Keith in doing evil deeds.

    Case in point: Toni Natalie

    Simply leaving an evil person — after enabling him to do evil deeds — does not by itself make a person honorable or TRULY remorseful. If that were the case then everybody who left Hitler (near the end) must be viewed as honorable or remorseful too.

    Truth is, the people who left Hitler near the end of the war simply did so because it was no longer convenient to continue supporting him.

    Some left because they had a falling out with him and were accused of betraying him (Goering, Himmler, etc). Some left because they saw the writing on the wall and knew that they had no future with him (Speer, etc).

    None of them left when things were going good.

    None of them left while living the high life, from the spoils of Hitler’s regime.

    Now obviously Keith isn’t anything close to Hitler — but he’s still an evil guy.

    In my opinion — the women who finally left Keith should be judged on the REASONS and TIMING of their departure, not by the act of simply departing.

    Did Toni leave when things were good in the Consumer Buyline days? Nope.

    Did she leave immediately after Consumer Buyline got shut down as a SCAM? Nope.

    Did she say “Honey, I think we should stop screwing over consumers with this MLM scam and live honorably” Nope.

    She was happy to live off the spoils of Keith’s immoral ventures.

    She was as happy as a clam — as long as things were good financially.

    She had no “remorse” back when things were good and she was living high on the hog with Keith — as snug as two bugs in a rug.

    Now the following is just from my memory, I can’t be sure everything is 100% accurate. Feel free to correct me if anything is incorrect.

    If my memory serves correctly —- I’m pretty sure that Toni left Keith only after he accused her of stealing money and fucking another guy and betraying him.

    Or in other words, Toni left only after she had a viable escape route and no longer needed Keith’s financial support — and had another man in her life to begin a new life with.

    She only left when things went south and a future with Keith was no longer a viable option (both for emotional and financial reasons).

    She left only when things went KAPUT.

    That’s a SELFISH REASON and SELFISH TIMING to leave an immoral fraud like Keith, at least in my opinion.

    A remorseful and honorable woman would have told Keith to stop screwing over consumers years earlier, and would have left Keith immediately after Consumer Buyline was shut down as a scam.

    Say what you want about me, but I’ve never enabled a monster like Toni did back in the 90’s. I’ve never left my spouse to hookup with an evil monster who screwed over consumers in a scam company and lived off the spoils of that venture.

    Toni should be asking for forgiveness, rather than preaching about how righteous she is. She’s no angel. She’s just a former devil trying to wear the clothes of an angel.

    Yeah I realize that Keith made her life hell by suing her for years, but does she ever think about the consumers and people who got screwed over by Keith while she was living high on the hog with him?

    I’m guessing not. That’s not remorseful.

    Just my own personal opinion. 🙂

    • Back in the day – MLMs were rampant, and not commonly thought of a scams, as they are now. I myself did not like MLMs then, but I did not think they should necessarily be illegal. Like, if you want to throw your money (or body) at someone or something, so what – if it doesn’t hurt anyone. Now we know better. But don’t throw Toni under the bus as living “high on the hog” with KR. As I recall, she went off to work each day, while he slept in, snug as a bug. Even then, he was using women to support him.

    • Your premise is solid but your memory does not serve you correctly. You are incorrectly grouping Toni in with the women that followed her. Toni was different because she thought she was in a monogamous relationship with Keith. When Toni found this not to be true, she dumped Keith and tried to move on with her life. This was all happening in late 1998 – at the very infancy of ESP. Toni was working 80hr weeks trying to make Keith’s failed vitamin store MLM work. All Toni’s money was invested in Keith’s brilliant vitamin store. It basically made her broke and then Keith litigated against her to finalize the bankruptcy. Toni was the opposite of “living high on the hog”.

      Keith sold Toni BS from the day he met her. He lied about their relationship. He lied about what was going on with CBI. He lied and lied and lied. She finally connected the dots and left him.

      I’d expect Toni to be the FIRST person to step up to the plate and apologize, if she thinks she should. My guess is she feels remorse for not bringing this monster down earlier. But when she left him, she was thinking “I’m getting away from this freeloading, lying, cheating, rapist.” Now, she realizes just how bad of guy Keith is.

  • Once again…the comments with the green anon icon are not mine.
    I would never tell Scott to “suicide” himself (which I did not say and never would say). If I wanted to talk to Scott I would email him personally, not threaten him publicly.

  • If your an espian/ ex espian reading the below list of 21 points you have to be asking yourself ‘What The Fuck Was I Thinking ‘ there’s simply no way to justify.
    When Nxivm tried to infiltrate the local A Capella family/club the club as a whole accepted the free wkend(not the right word, my brain isn’t working right) The 2nd year they were more sceptical at an event again free but with a few strings attached, and thrown together rather quickly. This time questionnaires aimed at the rather well off college crowd raised red flags. After some research and a long running thread where questions aimed at the current defendants the A Capella family as not only refused to meet with Keith in person (one reason given was the highly litigious nature of nxivm). But decided to cut ties altogether with A Capella 1 /Simply Human (NXIVM). This was 10 years ago, and this club figured out that well off college were targeted, my point being all of the actresses were involved(except sarah). Their own meters had to be going off at this point. Why they thought Keith wanted this group, no high schoolers were allowed nor the older crowd. Kristin K was actively involved another 5 years possibly longer. She’s chosen to be a public figure so yes she owes her audience, fans and the public in general a much more in depth answer to her involvement and ongoing targeting of certain demographics.

    • Hey Anon
      I may be fake, but at least I’m not a retarded fake twat like you.
      Blah blah….shit and more bullshit!

      Shut your retarded mouth already. You have nothing to do with this nexium shit, so why do you keep running your stoopid mouth with nothing but stoopid bullshit?

      Answer that you twit of a twat.

      You are by far the most retarded fake person here! I am just as fake, but much LESS retarded than you, twat brain.

      So take that!! You fake fake!

  • No one is a coward here little fella. Only idiots put out their real identity and location on the internet. And you are a prime example of that. I have a strong hunch it is going to bite you in your fat ass sooner rather than later.

  • What you must believe to be a successful member of NXIVM.

    From a very pertinent article.
    Well worth rereading.

    Ex-Harem women: What you need to believe to remain faithful to Vanguard

    01. Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson, both Green-sashed, were among the most successful Espians. An Espian has to change what they previously believed about them. From friend and someone to look up to, you must now look at them as suppressives.

    02. And Sarah was a sister to many women. To stay with Vanguard, you have to believe that Keith and Clare Bronfman are justified in going after Sarah on criminal charges. Even lying bogus charges for the sake of the mission.

    03. You have to believe that Dependent Over Submissive (DOS) is fiction, or dismiss claims of pain and suffering of women who were branded and gave collateral. If you were friends with any DOS woman who left ESP, you must cast aside that friendship. Not only her role as your friend but your role as her friend in need. Your friendships outside ESP are conditional on Vanguard’s approval.

    04. You must be able to rationalize Keith’s sex life, or believe his sex with students is helping women. You have to rationalize why this help is only offered to young, attractive female students and not to men or older or less attractive women.

    05. You have to ignore the teenage girls, now women – and the women in his ‘harem’ – who say they suffered through his lying, rape, and vindictiveness. You have to rationalize these women have no merit to their claims or that Keith hurt them for their own good.

    06. You have to ignore the $65 million Keith lost of his students’ money in the commodities market – and you have to ignore that he flubbed a $26 million Los Angeles real estate deal. You have to ignore the millions he borrowed from students and never repaid. You have to ignore the public record on his failed business, Consumers’ Buy Line, and believe Vanguard when he says it was a success.

    07. You have to believe he told the truth about his accomplishments on his bio despite the fact that many of his claims have been debunked. Or you have to believe he is justified in lying about his accomplishments in order to promote ethical success programs.

    08. You have to ignore your own life. For if you’re in Executive Success Programs, it’s quite likely you haven’t succeeded financially as real executives do. You may have inherited wealth, or have money left from before you began, but very likely you have not increased your wealth since joining ESP; more than likely you have less money than when you began and have paid a small fortune to ESP for what is literally no financial gain.

    09. If your main occupation is working for ESP (or one of its many related companies), you must believe you could not earn more elsewhere. You must believe that, after all your training in executive success, you are worth only $15 an hour. Or, if you are a top trainer and recruiter $50,000 to $100,000 a year – which is low pay for a talented executive in the modern marketplace.

    10. You have to believe the time and money Keith and Clare spent on litigation, on persecuting ex-members, is value building. That the three dozen lawsuits are about justice, not vindictiveness.

    11. Look at the people at top. You must believe the Greens and Proctors accomplished something to hold them in such honor. All the Greens that left, however, went without wealth. Green-sashed Barbara Bouchey had wealth when she came in. She left broke. Susan Dones, head trainer for Seattle, left nearly broke. Mark and Sarah left. They left without wealth. No one makes money inside ESP.

    12. Barbara Jeske, a Purple sash, died of cancer with zero assets and owed the IRS money. Purple-sashed Pam Cafritz only had the money she received from her family when she died of cancer. Prefect/Nancy Salzman has no money. She has to ask Clare to pay her bills.

    13. Nancy has breast cancer too. You may have been taught in ESP that someone who gets breast cancer has low self-esteem. How could someone who leads an executive success organization have low self esteem? You have to rationalize this too.

    14. You have to accept that executive success does mean executive success as the rest of the world defines it. The only High Rank who have money had it before they came in. Keith Raniere never had executive success in his life. Every business he touched failed or failed to grow. ESP failed to grow; the ancillary businesses are unsuccessful. Without Clare’s money, all of them would likely crater.

    15. You have to believe there are no victims. For if ever there was a victim of Keith Raniere, it is Ivy Nevares. He stole her adult life with his lies. Ivy must rationalize her failures as her own fault. Keith promised to marry her; he said he was in a monogamous relationship with her; that she would have his firstborn child. He managed to persuade her that her depression was caused by her “ethical breaches” rather than his lies. He used Lauren Salzman, Pam Cafritz and Nancy Salzman to lie for him

    16. Pam is dead from cancer. Nancy has cancer. Lauren is reportedly depressed for having been outed and exposed as a branded slave, seen as a liar, and never having the child Keith promised her also.

    17. Like Ivy, you have to believe the bad things happening to you, the depression, fear, self doubt is your fault. You have to believe in your weakness and in Keith’s ability to think for you.

    18. The ESP training is meant to make people feel bad. Look at the Opinion Questionnaire – you walk in the door thinking about your worst decisions, worst times in your life, worst adversaries and most obstructive people.

    19. You must believe Vanguard is not your obstruction. You must believe he is not a hypnotist, that he has not manipulated you.

    20. So many people say Vanguard destroyed their lives, some of whom were once close to him like you or maybe closer. You must believe he doesn’t lie or that he will not lie to you. You must believe so many untruths that in the real world of executive success, you would be classified as a fool.

    21. You must believe that as Vanguard destroys you, you owe him everything and must obey him no matter now degraded the things he makes you do.

    If you can believe all those lies and delusions then NXIVM is the place for you.

    https://frankreport.com/2017/09/19/ex-harem-women-what-you-need-to-believe-to-remain-faithful-to-vanguard/

  • What you must believe to be a successful member of NXIVM.

    From a very pertinent article.
    Well worth rereading.

    Ex-Harem women: What you need to believe to remain faithful to Vanguard
    https://frankreport.com/2017/09/19/ex-harem-women-what-you-need-to-believe-to-remain-faithful-to-vanguard/

    01. Mark Vicente and Sarah Edmondson, both Green-sashed, were among the most successful Espians. An Espian has to change what they previously believed about them. From friend and someone to look up to, you must now look at them as suppressives.

    02. And Sarah was a sister to many women. To stay with Vanguard, you have to believe that Keith and Clare Bronfman are justified in going after Sarah on criminal charges. Even lying bogus charges for the sake of the mission.

    03. You have to believe that Dependent Over Submissive (DOS) is fiction, or dismiss claims of pain and suffering of women who were branded and gave collateral. If you were friends with any DOS woman who left ESP, you must cast aside that friendship. Not only her role as your friend but your role as her friend in need. Your friendships outside ESP are conditional on Vanguard’s approval.

    04. You must be able to rationalize Keith’s sex life, or believe his sex with students is helping women. You have to rationalize why this help is only offered to young, attractive female students and not to men or older or less attractive women.

    05. You have to ignore the teenage girls, now women – and the women in his ‘harem’ – who say they suffered through his lying, rape, and vindictiveness. You have to rationalize these women have no merit to their claims or that Keith hurt them for their own good.

    06. You have to ignore the $65 million Keith lost of his students’ money in the commodities market – and you have to ignore that he flubbed a $26 million Los Angeles real estate deal. You have to ignore the millions he borrowed from students and never repaid. You have to ignore the public record on his failed business, Consumers’ Buy Line, and believe Vanguard when he says it was a success.

    07. You have to believe he told the truth about his accomplishments on his bio despite the fact that many of his claims have been debunked. Or you have to believe he is justified in lying about his accomplishments in order to promote ethical success programs.

    08. You have to ignore your own life. For if you’re in Executive Success Programs, it’s quite likely you haven’t succeeded financially as real executives do. You may have inherited wealth, or have money left from before you began, but very likely you have not increased your wealth since joining ESP; more than likely you have less money than when you began and have paid a small fortune to ESP for what is literally no financial gain.

    09. If your main occupation is working for ESP (or one of its many related companies), you must believe you could not earn more elsewhere. You must believe that, after all your training in executive success, you are worth only $15 an hour. Or, if you are a top trainer and recruiter $50,000 to $100,000 a year – which is low pay for a talented executive in the modern marketplace.

    10. You have to believe the time and money Keith and Clare spent on litigation, on persecuting ex-members, is value building. That the three dozen lawsuits are about justice, not vindictiveness.

    11. Look at the people at top. You must believe the Greens and Proctors accomplished something to hold them in such honor. All the Greens that left, however, went without wealth. Green-sashed Barbara Bouchey had wealth when she came in. She left broke. Susan Dones, head trainer for Seattle, left nearly broke. Mark and Sarah left. They left without wealth. No one makes money inside ESP.

    12. Barbara Jeske, a Purple sash, died of cancer with zero assets and owed the IRS money. Purple-sashed Pam Cafritz only had the money she received from her family when she died of cancer. Prefect/Nancy Salzman has no money. She has to ask Clare to pay her bills.

    13. Nancy has breast cancer too. You may have been taught in ESP that someone who gets breast cancer has low self-esteem. How could someone who leads an executive success organization have low self esteem? You have to rationalize this too.

    14. You have to accept that executive success does not mean executive success as the rest of the world defines it. The only High Rank who have money had it before they came in. Keith Raniere never had executive success in his life. Every business he touched failed or failed to grow. ESP failed to grow; the ancillary businesses are unsuccessful. Without Clare’s money, all of them would likely crater.

    15. You have to believe there are no victims. For if ever there was a victim of Keith Raniere, it is Ivy Nevares. He stole her adult life with his lies. Ivy must rationalize her failures as her own fault. Keith promised to marry her; he said he was in a monogamous relationship with her; that she would have his firstborn child. He managed to persuade her that her depression was caused by her “ethical breaches” rather than his lies. He used Lauren Salzman, Pam Cafritz and Nancy Salzman to lie for him

    16. Pam is dead from cancer. Nancy has cancer. Lauren is reportedly depressed for having been outed and exposed as a branded slave, seen as a liar, and never having the child Keith promised her also.

    17. Like Ivy, you have to believe the bad things happening to you, the depression, fear, self doubt is your fault. You have to believe in your weakness and in Keith’s ability to think for you.

    18. The ESP training is meant to make people feel bad. Look at the Opinion Questionnaire – you walk in the door thinking about your worst decisions, worst times in your life, worst adversaries and most obstructive people.

    19. You must believe Vanguard is not your obstruction. You must believe he is not a hypnotist, that he has not manipulated you.

    20. So many people say Vanguard destroyed their lives, some of whom were once close to him like you or maybe closer. You must believe he doesn’t lie or that he will not lie to you. You must believe so many untruths that in the real world of executive success, you would be classified as a fool.

    21. You must believe that as Vanguard destroys you, you owe him everything and must obey him no matter now degraded the things he makes you do.

    if you can believe all those lies and delusions then NXIVM is the place for you.

    https://frankreport.com/2017/09/19/ex-harem-women-what-you-need-to-believe-to-remain-faithful-to-vanguard/

  • Raniere got around the possibility that his followers might feel remorse or suffer from pangs on conscience by training them that “There are no victims.”
    You have to believe there are no victims.
    No matter what happens THERE ARE NO VICTIMS.

    To be a successful member of NXIVM you must live in an Alice in Wonderland world where you believe a dozen impossible things before breakfast.
    …. and the trees grew from the sky…. “Alice laughed. ‘There’s no use trying,’ she said. ‘One can’t believe impossible things.’ I daresay you haven’t had much practice,’ said the Queen. ‘When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” #lewiscarroll #nourishment #soulfood #imagination
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BW6lNWuBoAZ/?hl=en&taken-by=allisonmack729

  • If people were never public about their affiliation with NXIVM, why would they need to show “public” remorse? And what would satisfy your “public” criteria? For your second point, did you mean to write “even if you DID pay taxes” because if someone “DIDN’T pay taxes,” who cares about “public remorse.” Those people should be talking to the IRS or their country’s equivalent. Same goes for your point about knowingly participating in illegal acts. Those people need to be talking to law enforcement and lawyers rather than showing “public remorse.” And if someone did ignore / abandon their family and friends in favor of the cult, why would they need to show “public” remorse for this. Why isn’t that a matter to be handled privately between the parties themselves?

      • Hey Scottie how many people did you bring into Amway? How long were you in Amway? How can Amway be a scam when it’s legal and worldwide?

        How were.you scammed?

        You think Amway and Nxivm are the same thing. Nope, not even close Soapbox Scotty.

  • Thanks for using the word peccadilloes. I haven’t seen it in so long.

    “Was it cowardice only? Was it brainwashing? That’s too easy – brainwashing.”

    I think in many cases avarice.

  • Please don’t forget how well the NXIVM inner circle covered Raniere’s and their own tracks and what lengths they went to to do so.

    Nx’s were told detractors were “criminals,” etc. — and in some cases that label was sealed with bought indictments. In other cases, the “suppressive” never lived to tell. Many are still too frightened to tell.

      • The only pair you know about are the pair your boyfriend makes you gurgle. Go sit on a rusty dildo and die sooner rather than later.

        • Flowers unlike Scott -who is only I’ll mannered -it seems you axtullau hate. You are unique among commenters here.

          • And Johnny, you seem unique too. So unique that common sense eludes you.
            Why would I post with the anon icon and use the name Flowers?
            How is that LOGICAL?
            If the post uses the anon icon, then it’s not mine….in fact, it’s probably yours.
            Goodnight, John boy!

          • Johnny, I think you are the real and true AXTULLAU!
            I just said that to Anon yesterday. …I said to him, that Johnny- he is a real axtullau. And I meant it too!!

      • Scott, I think Flowers’ comments are valid. Not worthy of derision. No one here is a loser, if they are interested in bringing an end to KAR and his scams.

        • OCD ….great judge of character. Good to know you support this kind of abuse.

          Flowers
          September 30, 2018 at 11:44 pm

          Listen, Heidi the attention whore,

          Its easy to prove what you wrote to me. I’ve misstated nothing.
          You, on the other hand , are not only blatantly lying about what you said earlier, you are also making more baseless assumptions about me.

          I’m not posting under various aliases to argue with myself. What aliases do you think I’m using?

          And now your pathetic, (and not-even -veiled) attempts to scare me by implying I’ll go to prison! For what exactly? For calling you a liar?
          Surely you’re not dumb enough to really believe the police are going to arrest me for calling the high & mighty Heidi a liar.
          Cuz…yeah…that always happens. It only took 20 years and multiple felonies to arrest Keith, but I’m SURE the police are very interested in my comments to you.

          You are the most illogical person posting here.
          REPLY

          • How is my comment abusive , Anon? The person using the name Heidi made a comment that sounded very much like a death threat towards me, (all because I pointed out , truthfully, that Heidi Hutchinson followed Clare on Twitter)and then she tried to intimidate me by claiming I would be arrested for saying that.
            So, in your perception its okay for Heidi to threaten and intimidate me, but not okay for me to ask Heidi a question about something that she has done? And also okay for Heidi to try to frighten me with intimidation tactics?

            So, you’re saying it’s perfectly okay for her to be a bully, and if I defend myself against her, then I’m the abuser?

          • Orangecounty Kool-aid is not the sharpest knife in the draw. Her and flowerpot sound like the munch on each others carpets.

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